Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

John Taylor Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center. It's 6:30 on July 11, 1989 I'm in the Matewan Development Center and I'm going to be talking to John Taylor the Reverend of the local Methodist Church. So, I guess the place to begin uh...is it Dr. Taylor, Reverend.

JT: Reverend

BB: Taylor is uh...when you were born and where you were born?

John Taylor: I was born in uh...Berwyn, B.E.R.W.Y.N. Berwyn, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, October the 11th, 1926. My father was uh...mechanic an automobile mechanic and he worked for the down here what we call the Appalachian Power Company back then it was called uh...Public Service Company of Northern Illinois and uh...my mother was from Texas, she was born and raised on a very small subsufficent farm in the piny woods of East Texas. My father was a son of a man who managed a ranch near Angelton, Texas which is between Houston and the Gulf and uh...when my mother finished normal school which was like our Junior College today uh... with 2 years of training in education she went to Angelton to be a school marm(?) and that's how they met and uh...

B: When were they born?

JT: My dad was born in uh...1898 and my mother was born in 1895 their both deceased now.

B: What had brought them to Illinois? (laughing)

JT: (Laughing) That's an interesting story. The ranch on which my father was living was so large five thousand acres that uh...the scale of their operation warranted the use of a tractor, which back in 1910, 1912 uh...was not a very highly developed tool but uh...at any rate they bought one from the Holt Caterpillar Tractor Company in Peore, Illinois unfortunately it wasn't a very dependable instrument and back in those days of course the automotive vehicles were still very much in the developmental stage and there weren't garages every whip stitch...tip(?) stitch along the way and so uh...if there was uh...bad problem that couldn't be solved locally the factor would send the mechanic out and uh...they send the mechanic out not once, but several times and they couldn't get it so they would run and so finally the head of the department decided he was gonna come down and see what was wrong with that, it must have been quiet something to come by train all the way down to Angelton, Texas from Peore, Illinois uh...and by the time he got there my dad a young fellow, college age had been messing around with and got it to work and he was so impressed that he said young man if you ever need a job you've got one, so not long after that my grandfather died and uh...so the owner of the ranch hired somebody else as the manager and dad had to leave so that's when he wired this fellow and the guy sent him his ticket back and one for my mother, my mother to be and so they moved up to Illinois then and he shifted jobs later on, but at any rate that's how they came to be in Illinois and how he came to be a mechanic.

B: Oh, okay that's an interesting story.

JT: Yes.

B: I see your father might have been just about the right age to have fought in WW I, did he see any service?

JT: He might have been, but they needed tractors so badly that they did not take him into the service, because he was working for this Caterpillar Tractor Company and as a matter of fact he was placed in charge of the tractors that made the navel [sic] station at Norfolk, Virginia.

B: Oh, my goodness.

JT: He was in charge of keeping those tractors running so that they could be uh...they could make this...this military base.

B: So, was he a civilian working for the military?

JT: Yes, yes huh...huh...

B: Did any of your family I know this was before you were born, but I thought perhaps you might have heard stories, did anyone on either side of your family suffer through the flu epidemic of 1919? Did you ever hear any stories about that?

JT: I think not, because I never heard anything about that other than that my mother was worried about it, because they were in Norfolk at that time and uh...she was worried about it, but they were not taken by the bug.

B: How many siblings did you have?

JT: Just one I have a sister 4 years younger than I, who lives in Tucson she was the smart one in the family she got all the brains gosh! and most of the looks as far as that. God lee! I was always so happy that she was younger, because it must be terrible to be the younger brother or sister of somebody that's really smart and the teachers all say oh! I expect better of you, your older brother or older sister could have done that.

B: (Laughing)

JT: I didn't have to face that so I was glad that my sister was younger than I was uh...they passed her, she never went to the second grade they just passed her on from the first grade to the third grade and uh...I remember hearing my mother talk about the time she had to go down to the high school, because the teacher sent my sister to the principal's office uh...for cheating and uh...my mother got down there highly offended that any child of hers would be even thought, considered possible of having cheated and uh...(laughing). What had happened was my sister, who was just a natural speed reader and who was very intelligent to boot had gotten through with the test so fast that the teacher assumed she must have cheated, she must have had the answers before she came into the classroom and uh...so that's why she accused her of cheating and sent her down to the principal's office, but my mother...my mother was not one to be messed with and so uh...she got down there and got that teacher told and Betty Lou back in class.

B: So, your sister was exonerated?

JT: Yes, yes.

B: You say your mother was not one to be messed with what kind of person was she?

JT: Mother was very strong willed uh...today the psychologist would call her an authoritarian personality (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: And I have to come to appreciate that in later years, because I think the training she gave me was good, but uh...there was not much room for individuality you know and that was to bad I don't know that I'd been any better had it been different, but...but uh.. I've tried to avoid that with my children and my relations with other people possibly because of that contact. I learned very early that the way to be peaceful with my mother was to be uh... subservient and uh...so I didn't fight her I just went along with it and uh...so my life was pretty comfortable and she was not unreasonable in her demands she wasn't trying to work out some deeply hidden problem through me or that sort of thing and uh...so I had a pretty comfortable life as a kid I didn't realize how poor we were during the depression my father did not lose his job as an automobile mechanic he continued to work they did reduce his salary uh...on occasions they told me later and uh...a number of the fringe benefits of his job were eliminated as uh...economy moved, but he continued to work and uh...we could be thankful for that, but uh...they told me that there were times when what was ripe in the garden was what we ate and I remember we had a large garden and I used to hate to have to go out there and weed the beans and that sort of thing and I got so sick of beans to, beans and radishes shew wee! Why I like them today, but uh...

B: This was when you were living in the suburbs right?

JT: Yes, right a little town called Lombard is where my folks were living and then my father was promoted to be the garage foreman and sent to the garage in Joilet, I was in the sixth grade and he remained there the rest of his working life and so that's where I went through Junior and Senior High School in Joilet, Illinois.

B: Where do you think your mother inherited that? Did she inherit the trait of her personality being uh...an authoritarian or was it something from her training or just her personality?

JT: I never saw her father and I was only a tiny tot when I saw my grandmother they both remained in Texas, as a matter of fact my mother was the only one who left Texas of the family there were nine brothers and sisters and uh...she was the only one who left Texas permanently uh...so I can't say about the family, but uh...I find it hard to believe that either the genes or training would be responsible totally so I think it's probably a mixture of both that uh...she may have had some natural inclinations that were reinforced by her life's experience.

B: What was the dynamic between your mother and your father then? Did he compensate for that? Was he an easy going character or?

JT: Very, very had a tremendous sense of humor more stories oh, I used to wish I could remember he used to tell stories about himself and others and uh...he'd come home and uh...oh, I heard a good one and uh...you know jokes he would've heard and uh...he could remember them I don't have that talent, but uh...at any rate yes uh...he just worshipped the ground that mother walked on so it was easy for him you know just to say whatever you want Mattie. (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: And uh...because of the fact that we worked for the power company and the cars and the cars and trucks of the power company were out on the road during the working day he had to work nights uh... my entire life he worked nights and uh...one of the results of that was that mother probably was a more dominant person in my up bringing another result of that was that she had to take the initiative uh...because when decisions were being made dad was asleep uh...dad would get his paycheck and sign it and leave it on the breakfast table and mother took care of banking it and spending it and uh... so she really had the leadership there in the uh...that family, but dad didn't seem to mind and uh...they both had a deep respect and regard for each other so it was uh...it was a happy family I never heard them argue never.

B: That's rare.

JT: Yeah, right.

B: That's very rare. How about your school days what stands. we can progress through your school years, what do you remember about school when you were a little child? Did you move around much it seems that perhaps you?

JT: No, from the first through the sixth grade I lived in that little town of Lombard and I don't have any uh...memory there I have heard from my mother uh...in later years how she saw to it that my sister and I uh...began to get culture (laughing).

B: (Laughing)

JT: And uh...she felt that uh...anyone who is cultured knows about music so uh...even though it was during the depression she managed to get a piano and I don't remember 50 cents a week or something like that she had to pay on that piano, but she bought this used piano and uh...my sister and I took piano lessons and when I was in the third grade uh...it was the time in that community where you had an option to uh...uh...join the band and so I got an instrument and joined the grade school band and she was all behind that and uh...saw to it that we had lessons and that sort of thing. I was not aware at the time of the dynamic there, but I liked it and I did well at it and so naturally I enjoyed and I wasn't much of uh...of uh...athlete so was a place where I could shine and you know I enjoyed that and I continued that on through grade school and then high school and uh...as a matter of fact uh...I surprised myself I told you the way to get along with the adult woman in my life was to not make waves uh...I related to most adults that way I think probably in school I was a kind of a kid who although I didn't make really good grades was the kind of a kid that the teachers like to have, cause I didn't make any problems normally, usually I was not a disciplinary problem uh...but I...when I was in the eighth grade I went to the spring concert of the high school orchestra because I had played the baritone which is uh...not as large as a tuba, but kind of shaped like a tuba uh...I had played the baritone since I was in the third grade and I was kind of tired of that from band music and marching and I thought orchestra music would be kind of neat so I went to the spring orchestra concert and I don't recall being there wit [sic] anyone I just recall being there by myself that may not be so, but that's the way I remember it and at any rate I noticed that on the program on the back they had the names of all the kids in the orchestra and those who were graduating seniors had a little star a little asteric [sic] uh...beside their names and I noticed that the oboe had a lot of neat solo's hey! wow! and uh...so after the concert I went back stage you know that was completely out of character for me, but I walked up to the conductor the director of the orchestra and I said Mr. Combers I understand that you're looking for an oboe player he said how did you know? Do you play the oboe? I said no sir I don't, but if you'll loan me one I'll learn over the summer (laughing).

B: (Laughing)

JT: Can you imagine? Oh, so he did and I did and enjoyed it very much and when I graduated from high school I had a scholarship uh.. ..to college on my oboe I didn't get a chance to use, because the second World War came along and kind of interrupted things, but at any rate I enjoyed my music and then enjoyed singing and sang in the church quire one of the things that always bothered my mother about our high school was that the band, the orchestra and the course all practiced at the same time so kid had to make a choice and you couldn't be in more than one she thought I should be able to be in more than one.

B: Right. You say that the second World War interrupted your plans you would've graduated in what 19...

JT: Forty-four and uh...course second World War was very much in progress than and I was not a Passivist uh...we were talking earlier about the...the importance of the individual pastor on a congregation I'm not sure about Reverend Bowman uh...whether he was a passivist or not, but he came up to me after church one Sunday and he said something like "hey! John I know a neat way you can get out of going into service, you could be a Passivist", something like that it was like he had a string of wrist watches you know on his arm boy have I got a deal for you. that kind of an approach and uh...although I had not considered Passvism that kind of an approach to it so turned me off I never even consider it so my options were enlist or be drafted, cause I knew I wouldn't going to be 4-F so I enlisted.

B: What did you enlist in?

JT: In the navy.

B: In the navy?

JT: Yes, my patriotism left a little to be desired there I looked at the guys or what I heard about the guys in the army and they slappin' around and mud up to their ankles you know and dirty field kitchens to eat in and I thought God lee!, I don't like that now, in the navy you've got clean bunk to sleep in and you got a mess hall that's clean and that's for me, so I joined the navy. (laughing)

B: Sounds like you made a cultured decision "laughing".

JT: I don't know (laughing), but that was my logic.

B: You don't hear much I guess World War II was one of the last great patriotic conflicts.

JT: Yes, right.

B: But you say, was there uh...was passivism a well known out for young men at the time? Did you hear about this?

JT: Yes, it was known uh...but since it, do I dare call it a popular war, since it was a popular war in the sense that we had been attacked and there was uh...sort of a national unity behind the defense of our nation and for a long, long time uh...we kept losing ground it took America a long time to get uh...geared up for that war, because we've not had one for a quiet number of years and our military preparedness was in shambles and the result was that uh... even though we could have drafted as many men as we needed uh...we didn't have the guns for them, we didn't have the planes for them, we didn't have the tanks for them. The material was lacking and uh...so we lost ground in the South Pacific and uh...I don't know how much help we were in Europe either for a long time until...until the uh...factories began producing the kind of war goods that were necessary to be successful...

B: What...

JT: And so as a result it was a defensive war for a long time and uh...so the point there is that...that is was a popular war, because it's popular to defend yourself.

B: What theater did you serve in?

JT: I never left the country (laughing).

B: (Laughing) What happened?

JT: Well, when uh...when I joined the navy they sent me to boot camp and one of the first things they did was give us a test that was suppose to indicate what our aptitudes were and they said now we'll put you where your aptitudes are and then you can also tell us what you'd like, what would your first choice be and what was your second choice? When I was in high school I had thought I'd like to be a medical missionary so my thinking about church oriented work was apparently in my mind for a number of years, but at any rate one year of Biology and one semester of Chemistry told me that I was not cut out to be a physician and yet when I got to boot camp I told them that I wanted to be a hospital foreman, because I thought I could use those skills that I would be trained in uh... to get advantage later on uh...well, they gave me this test and I'll never forget part of the test they taught us in Morse Code the letter "A",     and the letter "N",     .

B: (Laughing)

JT: And then they gave us a bunch of these letters and uh...we were suppose to copy them down and on the strength of my ability to distinguish between the "A" and the "N",     and     uh...they sent me to radio school, so I went to radio school and uh...then they decided that I was such sterling quality that they were going to send me to another school uh...to run the communications at a PT boat base and uh...so I went to that school and while that school was going on they announced that uh...they were going to give the exam for the V-12 program now that's what the navy called their officer training program where they sent a student they sent a sailor to college for 4 years, when he got his Bachelor's degree they sent him to kind of uh...a boot camp for officers for three months and after that three months then he was given a commission and by that time I'd been in the navy long enough to see the difference between officers and enlisted members and I decided hey! be an officer I had a sudden surge of leadership ability I tell ya that's for me and uh...I took the test and uh...made a high enough score that they sent me to this uh...college program and while I was in my freshman year the war quit (laughing)

B: (Laughing) Oh, my goodness.

JT: So, I just spent the whole...the whole time I was in the service going from one school to another, so I did not see uh...I did not see combat duty, I was lucky uh...I do know that one of the guys at least the only fellow that I ever saw in that I was in boot camp with and I was right near the end of...of my term in the service and uh...so I talk with him for awhile and he had operated uh...a landing ship on several of the landings in uh...South Pacific and uh...he saw quiet bit of combat duty so, I missed out on that.

B: Do you think not seeing any combat had any affect on how you viewed your time in the navy?

JT: Yel, sure I felt a little guilt...guilty about it I was in the navy I should've...should've been out there fighting, but uh...I did everything I was told you know they told me to go here and I went there and it was their decision to send me wherever they did and so I didn't.

B: How long did you stay in the navy?

JT: Two years.

B: Two years? So you never completed your officers training?

JT: No, I got a year of college credit, I finished my freshman year and then I was discharged. What they did they said now you can stay in this program if you'd like uh...but, you will be committed year for year uh...for uh...service to the navy after you have completed you program so I would've had to stay in the service three years while I was going through the rest of my college and then four years in the navy after that so, that was another seven years and uh...the navy did not treat me badly, but that wasn't where I wanted to go in life and so I told them thanks alot, but no thanks and they said okay it's...it's back to the mess hall for you. (laughing)

B: (Laughing) Okay.

JT: So.

B: What did you do when you left the service? Where did you go from there?

JT: Went straight to college uh...was discharged in June and went to college in the fall the school that I had intended...had intended to go to when I uh...graduated from high school uh...a good choice for the wrong reasons.

B: Really!

JT: yeah...uh, a very poor job, I'm not sure why I don't remember any guidance counselor in high school at all period, now we had a Dean of Women and a Dean of Men uh...Dean of boys and Dean of girls, but uh...I saw them as disciplinarians not as somebody to go talk to, so nobody ever talk to me about going to college, the only orientation to college that I had was a couple of girls from our Youth Fellowship in church who went to this college , Cornell College and uh...they came home on summer vacation and that sort of thing and they'd say gee John that's really a great school you ought to go there as a matter of fact they invited me out one weekend uh...to uh...there some special program I don't know Homecoming or something and uh...so they invited me out and I visited the campus and I liked it and so I had always intended to go there and so I did, now that's a poor way to choose a school you know it could've been really a bummer, but it turned out to be a good choice, excellent teachers and uh...I felt like I had a good education.

B: Now, what was you degree from that school?

JT: Bachelor of Arts with a major in philosophy and religion which was again probably a good choice, but for the wrong reason, absolutely I did not learn much philosophy and religion, but uh...when I enrolled I enrolled as a sophomore and at the school at that time sophomore's declared their major and since I had indicated that I was going on to seminary they assigned me to the chairmen of the Philosophy and Religion Department as my academic advisor and I went in to see Dr. King and on our very first meeting. I'll never forget it he said "well, John so your going into ministry I think you are to know John any     logical student worth his salt in this school majors in Philosophy and Religion, what do you intend to major in John"? I mean it was as blatin as that, that was it.

B: So, you said?

JT: Philosophy and religion of course Dr. King hey! wow! well, he just trying to keep his...his enrollment up you know in his department.

B: So, this was in the late '40's was it?

JT: Huh...huh...1946 I started there, graduated in 1949.

B: What religions did, would a religion major study? I know people now they study Buddhism, Hinduism and what kind of...

JT: Yes, we had courses in that uh...I remember we had uh...a Jewish professor who taught Judaism and we had uh...Chinese faculty member who, uh...taught us about uh...Buddhism and Shintoism uh... the oriental religions so I think we were getting fairly uh...balanced uh...introduction I don't know that I can say I remember an awful lot you know specific, but at least I had the feeling that uh...I was not getting uh...a terribly biased [sic], but a sympathetic and understanding interpretation of each of those religions my problem was that I was uh...more pragmatically oriented than I was philosophically oriented.

B: oh...uh...huh

JT: and uh...the way that I made good grades was by figuring out rather early the kinds of things that the professor liked to hear and that's what I told him on his exams and he always like that so, I got good grades, but I was not learning philosophy.

B: Right.

JT: I did not become a philosopher uh...but I...I guess that stands for my mother you know you learn how to sike out the adults in your life the authority figures.

B: Right.

JT: That's a new insight I hadn't thought of that before.

B: Let me flip this tape for a minute. tape cuts off

B: We were talking about your training in college. How long had you known that you wanted to go to the seminary when you?

JT: When I was in high school our youth fellowship was uh...fairly active and was important in my life, that was my socializing I didn't dance, I suppose my mother didn't approve of it. I don't know...rhythm I liked...you know music uh...so I liked that, but I just never was attracted to learning to dance so it was no big problem we didn't fight over it. I suppose my mother thought it was kind of you know sexually arousing.

B: Oh, my goodness in the '40's. (laughing)

JT: That's what she would've said I think, but at any rate uh...my socializing was not through dances and hops and parties and that sort of thing, but was in the youth fellowship and summer camp was important in my life and uh...there were two young ministers that I really liked not, pastors of my church, but of other churches where kids said come to this summer camp and they were on the staff at the camp and I thought by golly if I could do the kind of things that they do that would really be great and they challenged us all you know there was an evangelistic thrust in the camp programing and uh...so I responded well to that and that's where my idea of being a minister came from.

B: So, but you had been brought up in a fairly religious home and you'd attend church regularly?

JT: Yes, yes right. My mother as a matter of fact had told me that uh...when she was a kid they used to go to the Baptist Church in the morning and the Methodist Church at night a little vise versa I don't know which was which uh...now as I look back on it I can see why they lived on a farm that was way out in the woods and uh...as a result uh...they had very little social contact now that she and her brothers and sisters went to school, but the family as a whole had very little social contact off the farm and so Sunday was a time for socializing and the church provided that opportunity for social contact and so it was back to scoop one time and back to scoop another time and uh...so she was very strongly oriented to go to church and so was my father.

B: Right.

JT: My...my father's father had been Sunday School Teacher, Sunday School Superintendent uh...Directed the quire that sort of thing and so my dad was brought up in a church to.

B: What I think as we were talking before, we started on tape, were talking about now most exposure that the general populous has to religion is the uh...is the born again the idea of a personal experience or a personal conversion of moment of faith or whatever, so it's interesting to hear about someone who attended seminary. What kind of training does a minister to be...receive?

JT: My training was more academic than uh...what would I say spiritual uh...when I was uh...in this Cornell College that we were talking about a moment ago and it was time for me think about where I would go to Seminary I decided I wanted to make a more intelligent decision on a choice of Seminary that I had at college uh... and I went to one of my professors whom I respected a professor of religion and uh...I asked him if he had any advise [sic] and I told him that I had been thinking about Garriett Theological Seminary, which is a Methodist School in Evaningston, Illinois and since I came from Northern Illinois and anticipated that I'd be going back to Illinois to be a minister that made good sense uh...but I knew that he had gone to Yale for his PHD training and uh...so I thought maybe he'd have a different point of view and he said "well, you'll find it hard to do better than Garriett if what your training for is uh...the Parish Ministry it's a good school, but he said if you really want to get your mind stretched you might want to consider Yale", so I went to Yale and I had enough grades that I figured I could go where ever I wanted and I did so that worked out well and at Yale uh...Yale is uh...not related to any denominations, nondenominational...interdenominational seminary uh...there probably were more Methodist students there than anything else uh...and I don't know I never even ask about the denominational affiliation of uh...my professors it was not an important issue to me how they thought, what they thought, how they taught those are the important things to me and so I didn't uh...I didn't wasn't concerned about their denomination, but as far as student affiliation I think probably they were more Methodist than anything at least I didn't feel out of place now the professors who were there uh...were all academically oriented so that I received a very rigorous training uh.. ..in academics I didn't realize how rigorous uh...in those days when I was there in Seminary you received another Bachelor's degree when you graduated from Seminary you got a Bachelor of Arts degree when you graduated for undergraduate school then you went, when you graduated from Seminary you got a Bachelor of Divinity Degree and uh...so I got a Bachelor of Divinity Degree and then went, when I came back to Illinois and began to serve a church uh...I took additional work at Garriett that Methodist Seminary that I'd thought about for a Master's Degree, Garriett is affiliated with Northwestern University and the two schools work together on a graduate degree program so, I got a Master's Degree and I did not work as hard for my Master's Degree and I had for my Bachelor of Divinity Degree as a matter of fact a good bit of my Master's Thesis was a term paper that I did for one of my courses in uh...Yale at the Seminary for a Bachelor's Divinity Degree uh...so it. I got some really good rigorous, but academic not spiritually oriented training uh...I would suppose that, that school is pretty much the same today, because that's their orientation they look upon themselves as being among the top schools in the nation and they want to do whatever they can to maintain that uh...that image and not just as an image they want it to be a reality.

B: What kind of course work did you do? Is it are they history of religion or history of the Bible kind of oriented?

JT: Yes, both there be history of religion, there be history of uh...of Theology, how man has thought about religion down through the years uh...there be courses on various aspects of Theology, various uh...elements of what does the church or what do people believe about uh...man, the nature of man that might be uh...a single course uh...what's the role of the church? How did the church come to be and what is it suppose to be? Might be a whole course the history of the church uh...now there's one professor that I did indeed know his denomination uh...the professor of church history that I had was named Rolland Baintamen, he was a quaker, he was a friend uh...and such an excellent lecturer that he had to hold his classes in the auditorium, because others who did not register for the class including other faculty members would come in to listen to him lecture he was so...so dramatic and thorough and eradite (?) oh, golly what a guy and so he held his classes in the auditorium, but at any rate uh...had a good academic orientation there uh...probably not the best preparation for a parish minister as a matter of fact as I look back on it, because that matter of the feeling, the matter of the emotion that's related uh...in the Christian faith uh...conversion or whatever you want to call it uh...was missing really totally, totally missing I have not been aware that during my ministry in Matewan I have utilized specific training that I received, but when I was in Seminary my major was Social Ethics, which is a term to describe the relationship of the christian faith to the social condition of the people of the day in which we live uh...earlier in this century there was a great movement uh...in American Protestism at least I can't speak for the Catholic Church uh...called the social gospel uh...it tended to parrell the development of strong labor unions in America, historically would place it about the same time and uh...some of that social gospel ferfer still existed at Yale when I was there and I picked up on that. It was something I had never heard of before and I was fascinated by it...I had never been an activist uh...the uh...march in Selma, Alabama occurred while I was an undergraduate. I was not at all motivated to go down there...although I had deep emotional feelings of sympathy I wasn't motivated to go down there and stick my chin out to let some redneck slug it, but uh...uh...it was the first time I'd really heard anybody talk about the relationship of the church to social providence and I was fascinated by it so I took more courses in that than anything else which may have to explain why I been so interested in Matewan in those kinds of things, but I'm not aware of any specific courses that...that I could go back and say well, I learned in that course that this is what I'm suppose to do I can't point to that.

B: Let me jump back really quickly, cause something came to mind and then I'll pick up again were the schools in Illinois that you attended were they segregated or were they integrated? Were there any blacks in your communities that you grew up in?

JT: Uh...in the earliest community I don't remember seeing any blacks at all uh...in Joliet there were, Joliet is an industrial town and there were blacks there and they were in the public school uh...and I had no feelings of I had nothing uh...no negative feelings nothing but support for them uh...my mother was prejudiced, but didn't realize it and denied it uh...when we talked about it I began taking as an undergraduate I began taking courses in Sociology you know and began learning some of these things that I had not known before not the relationship of the church, but just uh...the general subject of Sociology uh...and uh...while I was there a     wrote his classic study on uh..."Race in America", uh...I forget the exact title of it, but uh...he was a Swedish Sociologists who came and spent alot of time in the United States especially in the South and uh...was able to see it more objectively, because he was an outsider, cause he did not fit in any particular camp as an American, because he wasn't American, so he was able to write more objectively that was uh... moving an expression experience to read the work of     , but uh...I'd go home and I'd talk about this on vacation and mother would say, but I'm not prejudiced I remember oh, Margaret and then she talked about this black woman who was a cook in their farm here this little subsistence farm un...and uh...yep they had a cook and as long as ole Margaret stayed out there in the kitchen you know that's fine good ole Margaret, now Margaret always called her Mrs. Mattie, but she was ole Margaret you know and mother couldn't see the distinction there.

B: Right.

JT: So, but I she did not convey that to me uh...I think and so I did not have uh...that burden of prejudiced to overcome.

B: I was just wondering, because uh...my family has been from the South, so it's hard for a Southern to realize that things were not segregated everywhere else you know, before the civil rights movement, I just checking about that uh...I guess how does a minister go from well, how do you go from the Seminary to Ordination?

JT: It's separate the ordination in the United Methodist Church as a opposed to the Baptist Church that we were talking about before we went on this tape uh...the ordination is done by the denomination and a candidate for ordination uh...is interviewed by a group of ministers uh...who are already ordained and they uh...they decide ultimately whether that person is acceptable as, as a colleague it's rather like the professions, like medicine for example uh...you don't uh...well, now wait a minute I that's not medicine in medicine you get your MD degree and you are license by the state then to practice and your colleagues really don't decide your colleagues would only decide whether you could be a member of the Medical Association.

B: Okay.

JT: So, that's not a like, it's not like the professions uh...what is it like it's not like anything, it's not like being a school teacher.

B: How do they choose? Is there a national board that all potential candidates go before or is that regional?

JT: Not in the United Methodist Church, in the United Methodist Church the uh...the operating power is in what's called an annual conference and uh...generally not exclusively, but generally uh...an annual conference will follow state lines, uh...West Virginia is an annual conference, Ohio is has two annual conferences, because their population is of Methodist is so large uh...but the except for the North-South boundary between the East Ohio conference and the West Ohio Conference the boundaries of those conferences are by the state uh...at any rate then this annual conference is the group that would have the committee of Clergyman who would make the...the decision on that and then ordination is by the uh...the annual conference uh...I'm trying to decide where to go with that. The just a bit about the history of the Methodist Church.

B: Okay.

JT: You know as an historian I'm sure your aware that uh...when Henry the eighth, King of England uh...was rejected by the Pope for the anulimate [sic] of his marriage to his queen so that he could get somebody else uh...he started the church of England, he was not interested in starting the Protestant church in England uh...what he interested in was his own will and uh...he couldn't accept the interference of the Pope in what he wanted to do uh...well, the result of that was that the Angelton [sic] Church or the Church of England which he started was patterned after the Roman Catholic they just didn't mass in English you know it was and he had the last say uh...that was the only difference.

B: Right.

JT: Uh...he was not really interested in changing things other than to change what gave him the opportunity to do what he wanted. The founder of the Methodist Movement, John Wesley was an Angelton Priest, he was ordained in the church of England, which really had it's roots in the Roman Catholic Church uh...so it is the pattern that was set up was higher article with the authority leading up the Methodist Church had no Pope, the Angelton Church had no Pope you know there was no one person on top uh...so the Methodist denomination is rather authoritarian in it's structure and in the 20th century has been...has been moving in more democratic directions, but the fact of the matter is still that it's authoritarian in it's structure uh...one of the ways this works is that they the uh...body of clergy decides who their going to ordain, whom they are going to ordain and then the Bishop in charge of an annual conference in this case West Virginia Annual Conference appoints those ministers where he thinks they will do best and although the ministers today are consulted in say 30 years ago they wouldn't even be consulted.

B: Really.

JT: No, they just as a matter of fact there's a delightful ole fellow he's late '80's now this year he missed his first annual conference in West Virginia in over 50 years he's been ordained for over 50 years.

B: Oh, my goodness.

JT: Uh...and he's retired living in Charleston and he has told me that he can remember when he used to go to Annual Conference and nobody knew where they were going at the end of Annual Conference and that on the last day of conference the Bishop would read his decisions as to who was going where the appointments and that he can remember having to run out to a telephone and call his wife and say quick get packed were moving some place uh...now that's really very undemocratic.

B: Really.

JT: Uh...to our standards today uh...kind of offensive really so its better than that now, but when push comes to shove in the Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church the uh...Bishop has the final say still out of authoritarian structure.

B: How did Methodism come to the United States? What was the...how did that carry over?

JT: Uh...it came to the United States, because there were a number of uh...emigrants from England, leaving England uh...to come to America who were uh...members of Methodists societies this fellow John Wesley, who started our movement was not at all interested in a separate denomination and fought it to his dying day uh...he was not interested in starting another church, he simply wanted to reform uh...The Church of England so that the common people would be uh...ministered to and the gospel as he understood it would be preached uh...The Church of England in Wesley's day was uh...very much like the Catholic church uh...in, in uh...stress on ritual and the power, the authority of tradition and Wesley, because of his own spiritual experience that was a very moving experience to him uh...felt that this was the key through the christian faith uh...the recognition of     love and     forgiveness in your own heart and if you didn't feel that you know your religion really let you down and so when he preached that The Church of England uh...criticized him for being what they called an ethusaised and that was a term of derision just like Methodist was a term of derision uh...which began uh...when uh...John Wesley and his brother Charles and some others uh...at Oxford started this group for common Bible study and prayer and doing things uh...good deeds I guess you'd call 'em uh...and uh...some of the other students called them Methodist in derision they also called them Bible moths and uh...they called 'em the Holy Club they were other terms of derision, but that Methodist was a term that stuck, but at any rate uh...another practice of the church of England at that time was to rent the pews if you wanted to go to church you had to rent a pew to sit in and uh...if you couldn't afford to rent a pew you really couldn't afford to go to church well, that left most people out so most of the common people of course the industrial revolution had begun and uh...the uh...populations of the cities were burgening [sic] uh...but they were growing with people who couldn't afford to go to church and so they were not hearing the gospel at all of any kind and uh...so it fit in very well that John Wesley began to preach out in the open he would stand on the uh...the steps of the church, because the churches wouldn't allow him to come in if he was a enthusiast you wouldn't allow him in your appointment surely as a matter of fact one time he went back to his home town and he offered to uh...a share in the service with the uh...with the curet [sic] uh...kind of like an assistant minister uh...I don't know I guess the church was still being served by John Wesley's father at that time and his father spent a lot of time in London which was quiet a ways off and so he'd leave the church in the hands of the curet, but he...John Wesley offered to help with the prayers or reading the scripture or something and the curet was frightened by him and said no thanks, thanks a lot, but no thanks and uh...so that night that evening, Sunday evening that he was denied that access to the church he uh...stood up on the grave of his father out along side the church and preached from there and uh...he must a been a very dynamic kind of preacher, because the report is that several hundred people came to hear him preach and a little upworth that I visited just a couple of weeks ago, little upworth uh...doesn't have a thousand people in it you know it's kind of like Matewan maybe smaller I don't know where they all came from, well at any rate uh...John Wesley preached out in the open and began preaching to these people since he didn't want to start a denomination he insisted that when people would gather together in groups he called them societies or classes and he insisted that they meet at times other than the times when services were going on in The Church of England.

B: Okay.

JT: So, they did not meet on Sunday these classes or these societies would meet like Wednesdays maybe that's where the prayer meeting idea comes from I don't know, but at any rate uh...these kinds of people then began emigrating to America and they were people that needed to be uh...served these groups needed to be helped and so uh...Wesley sent some of his lay people, he didn't ordain them uh...he just commissioned them to go over and help so that's how the Methodist movement which at that time was not a denomination uh...came over well, uh...the American Revolution lead to a split with England obviously and uh...the split affected the church to uh...all but one of the men that Wesley sent over here returned to England.

B: All but one.

JT: Yeah, because they were uh...loyal to John Wesley who was loyal to the Anchor of the Church, which was The Church of England and these people over here didn't want anything to with England at that time so uh...they had a real hard time trying to decide what to do and the decision then was to set up a separate denomination and that's how the Methodist church began.

B: From there to just skip ahead, so we won't be here all night, uh...in England when labor organizations began there was a lot of interaction between uh...members of the Methodist religion and labor organization, has the Methodist Church in United States had that same kind alliance, were they in England there's some history that said they actually a lot of union organizers would meet in the Methodist Churches in England was there that kind of alliance once the American Labor Movement started? Do you know?

JT: Not that I'm aware of I would say two things in this regard uh...one is that in the United States Methodists expressed what uh...has come to be called the Protestant work ethic. Methodist worked hard, Methodist saved their money, Methodist became managers they succeeded and while there were groups of Methodist and while the denomination as a whole was socially concerned and would take stands on issues and that sort of thing uh...the Methodist Church was very strong on the subject of slavery, they was very strong on the subject of alcohol so in terms of social issues they were strong, but I'm not aware of a close relationship to the development of organized labor probably, because when by the time that began in the twentieth century would you say.

B: Late 1800's early twentieth century.

JT: Uh...by that time the Methodist Church socially represented the uh...middle class and uh...so that's the first thing I'd say the second thing I'd say is that going way back to Wesley himself when Wesley began this organization of societies.

JT: Second point in response to your question about the relationship of the church to labor uh...the second point is that uh...Wesley from the very beginning saw the importance of a uh...an expression of ones spiritual faith experience in daily living and not just being honest not the personal kinds of behavior, but in terms of work with others, the first building that John Wesley organized in was called the foundry it was an ammunition building that had had a fire explosion and uh...I'm not the explosion obviously didn't destroy the building or it wouldn't have been available to Wesley, but uh...it did bankrupt the company (laughing) so it was uh...it was a building that was standing there vacant and uh...Wesley uh...rented this building uh...for the purpose of...of being a center for his societies and a place where he could orient and train uh...the uh...lay men that he uh...asked that he wanted the commission to be workers with these various societies uh...and in the foundry Wesley not only did this training that I was just talking about and not only had worshiped there, but he set up an orphanage for children, he set up a school because in those days little kids would as soon as they could were put in the factory to earn uh...money for the family and uh...they had no opportunity to learn so he set up Sunday schools there, Sunday was the only day the kids were available and he taught reading, well he didn't teach, but he got people to teach them reading, writing, arithmetic it was a regular school as you and I think of school uh...he had uh...a publishing business there, he published pamphlets, evangelistic type of materials uh...he uh...had room set aside for widow ladies, because in those days they was no such thing as social security if your husband died there goes your...your source of income and if you didn't own your own home you know you were out on the street and uh...so he set up a home for widow ladies uh...all of these are social action at the same time he did that he did that in the foundry he was organizing visitation to prisons and uh...the diaries of some of the early Methodist uh...not ministers, but lay preachers uh...it was very are very interesting to read they'll tell about their experiences going to the prison uh...and finding out what the people needed there and trying to help meet those needs and working with the families of those who were in prison sometimes very honest people, but they were thrown into jail because they couldn't pay their debts and that was the way they handled it in those days and uh...so they were necessarily crooks in the sense you and I might think of somebody being in jail today, but uh...at any rate uh...again that's another social action type thing, now this goes to the very beginning of the...the Wesley movement that subsequently became the Methodist Church so when it was transferred over here to America there was this great concern for the common man and for the problems of the common man one of the things that was almost unique, not completely, but almost unique to the Methodist movement certainly was a key to the success of the Methodist Church was that since these men they were they were all men pardon me.

B: (Laughing)

JT: Uh...since these men were not ordained and did not have churches that they serve they had to go where their people were and they would be assigned to go to what was called a circuit of...of uh...places uh...and as the frontier began to move West that circuit type of organization was beautifully adaptable to well, we'll start another circuit over there I understand there's two or three little homes over there starting a little community and so that would be added on to somebody's circuit and so the Methodist movement went West uh...along with the early settlers and there was some Presbyterians that did that, but by large that was a Methodist practice.

B: My great, great grandfather was a circuit writing Methodist...

JT: Is that right?

B: In Southwestern, Virginia I've heard of that uh...let's see. How about when you once you were ordained explain some of the places that you've been were you assigned places?

JT: Yes, I contacted the Bishop in Illinois and told him that I was about to graduate and would like to be assigned and so he said yes I had previously been in contact with him and he had made arrangements with the Bishop in New York that was over the Methodist Church in Connecticut where Yale is located uh...and it was a committee of ministers in New York that had examined me and had told the Bishop my Illinois well, the guy looks alright you know what kind of trouble can he make uh...they had said that it was acceptable and so then the Bishop back in Illinois had already accepted me as...as uh...one of his responsibilities so you know let me just say here parenthetically that...that this...this pattern of the Bishop making appointments is uh...there are two sides to it I said it was an authoritarian kind of a thing and it is, but the other side of that coin is that a Methodist minister unless he does something terrible as immoral or something like that and uh...gets kicked out he is always assured of an appointment now in some other denominations uh...it like if Don Matney here were to be uh...so bad that the church would ask him to leave he wouldn't have anywhere to go he'd have to hunter out and see if he could find some other church that needed a pastor and get them to call him uh...sometimes that can be pretty hard in the United Methodist Church that does not happen, because as long as you are a full member of a conference like I am a member of the West Virginia Annual Conference I know that the Bishop has an assignment for me that's part of the responsibility that the church accepts when it accepts me as a ordain minister.

B: Okay.

JT: Well, anyway the Bishop had accepted that responsibility in Illinois so I went I forget whether it was Spring vacation or what uh...but I went out to Illinois made a trip out there and I met with a...a man that works with the Bishop called a district superintendent he said I've got a church in my district that I think it be a really great church for you John it's great it's got three hundred members I just couldn't understand why he would assign a fellow fresh out of Seminary to a church with three hundred members that's sounded like a great big church this church over here has a hundred and fifty members so it's twice as big. Oh, wow! I found out the first Sunday they were thirty people in church you know. (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: It was a dying church, but at any rate uh...I was assigned there and it was while I was there that I worked on my Master's degree at Garriet now in it's a long answer to your question, but...but in response to your question what happened was that while I was there at that church it was in a town called North Chicago uh...while I was in North Chicago uh...I was asked if I would go to a Methodist college to teach religious education and Bible and uh...they knew better than to ask me to teach philosophy. (Laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: But at any rate uh...I did and that began the thrust in my ministry that was different from most I had not served parishes for most of my life for 30 years then I worked in colleges and universities as an ordain minister and every year the Bishop would reappoint me to wherever I ask him to appoint me in whatever college or university I wanted to work now if I had ask to go outside of this country or if I had ask to go to maybe uh...a Vo-Tech school to teach welding or something he might have said John I really don't understand how that relates to ministry I think he might have raised a question about that, but as long as I was in everyone, but one of my the schools where I worked they were all church related schools and the relationship to ministry was pretty clear so I never he never raised a question I told him uh...this year I'd like to move I'd been ask to go to so and so and I'd like to go there he'd write back and say you got my blessings go, so that's the way it has worked for me, but for most Parish Ministers in the Methodist Church, United Methodist Church uh...they are every year appointed by the Bishop.

B: What brought you to Matewan?

JT: The Bishop sent me here uh...I decided that I knew very few white haired Deans of Students or balding Deans of students and uh...I had felt all along that when I ran out of steam for working with youth exclusively I would return to the parish ministry and so, my wife and I discussed it and decided that it was time to do that when I was the uh...Dean of Students at the University of Charleston uh...a member of the faculty and uh...so we made contact with the Bishop now I had already known him because I had been preaching on Sunday's at a little church that they did not have anybody to serve in uh...on the edge of the city so he already knew me it was not like I just walked in off the street and said hey Bishop give me the church.

B: (Laughing)

JT: Uh...but I told him of my decision Elenor and I had uh...talked about the various places we lived we had lived in Illinois and my...in the Methodist Church a ministry is not a member of a congregation his membership is in the annual conference within in which he is appointed so, my membership was back in Illinois uh...I could've gone back to Illinois I could've simply written the Bishop and said I'm returning and would like to be assigned to a church in June or whenever they have annual conference we could've gone back to Michigan where I spent a number of years there while I was in graduate school and in Ohio where I'd been an Associate Dean of Students and we had friends there in the Columbus area uh...we could've gone back to Pennsylvania where I'd been A Dean of Students at a college, I had been on faculty at Catholic University in Washington D.C. for a number of years and we lived in a suburb in Maryland and I could've gone back to Maryland, but we decided we wanted to stay in West Virginia, because we liked the people and we liked what we'd seen of the culture although it all been around Charleston, Charleston is the only city that we'd lived in, but uh...we liked it in West Virginia and so we wanted to stay here so I told the Bishop that I'd like to become a member of the Annual Conference here and be under his appointment and so he took it up with the committee and they agreed and so then he assigned me to a church in Charleston that was a really smart move I think uh...at least I thought he had done a wise thing there a lot of people in...in West Virginia didn't know me from Adam you know I was just over there at the college and I didn't have wide contacts in the church so he assigned me to a large church where there was a Senior Minister and several Associate Ministers and I was one of those Associate Ministers and it gave somebody who was well known in the conference that Senior Minister a chance to get to know me and see what I could do and see whether or not the Bishop had made mistake and that sort of thing so, uh...I was there as an Associate Minister for a couple of years and then the Bishop sent me down here. It was not a matter of discussion uh...it was an authoritarian move it's just the way it is.

B: Uh...let's see I think my first question about your experience in Matewan might be preference by a question about missionary work, did you ever get a chance to do any missionary work?

JT: No.

B: Never followed up that youthful idea.

JT: No, never did.

B: What was your first impression of Matewan? I know at one time the Methodist Church was a really large church was it?

JT: I don't know that it was large in terms of numbers, but it was large in terms of influence, because uh...it was the church to which the business people went, it was the church to which school teachers went uh...and that meant that it was the middle and upper class church.

B: Church of the elite?

JT: It was the church of the elite and the church with money and uh...I don't know that it has dropped in membership it has not grown, but I don't know that it's dropped in membership numbers it's just that uh...the people who are there now well, they are some of those who are leaders in the community, but not to the extent that they...that it used to be and I think that's probably just as well I mean the leadership are to be spread out in the other denominations in the town to as far as that goes uh...

B: What kind of community was Matewan like? I know off tape I'd warned you that I was going to ask what you believe the role of a church can be in a depressed area? Was Matewan suffering from economic decline by the time that you arrived?

JT: Oh, yes I've just been here five years and uh...uh...I came in the week after the 1984 flood so, the strips of dirty mud on the windows across the way there were still here, every time a car or every time a coal truck went by billows of muddy dust uh...came up so that was very uh...real and of course the uh...the economic depression uh...or recession in the coal industry was very much uh...in it was very present at that time uh...as far as first impressions the first day that my wife and I were down here uh...before we had even moved in we came down just to see what the town was like and we sat in the booth, the window booth of the Little Venice over here and uh...looked out and it was a discouraging site I must say all of these stores across the way were closed they were all washed out uh...and uh...let's see I'm not sure whether school was in session then or not uh...I just don't remember should've been, but whether the flood interrupted school I just don't remember, but I do remember seeing a lot of kids on the street and we observed to each other there's no place for those kids to go there's nothing for them to do around here the only places where they could go would be Little Venice or the Silver Dollar Saloon over there uh...there was nothing for 'em to do and that's been uh...worry of mine so that was one of the first impressions and I suppose another early impression though not the first was the warmth of the people. I followed the minister who had been here for eighteen years and who was born and raised in the Matewan area and his mother and father were members of the church when I came and both of his sons were members and lived here in town and his daughter was a member and lived here in town, so his presence when I came was still very real uh...and uh...it could've been an exceedingly difficult thing to try to come in take his place, but uh...the people were so warm and accepting they my predecessor had prepared them for his departure and for my coming and uh...I don't know how he did it, but he got them to understand that this is the way it was going to be and that uh...they should accept me and they did and that was one of the early impressions to cause I was anxious about that I knew what could happen very well, well gee that wasn't the way we used to do it that sort of thing.

B: My next question Dr. Taylor is uh...there's a famous quote of Mark's I believe religion is the opening of the masses and this is has been uh...a union area it's been probably union the idea for a union for the rest of the country is slightly left of center to begin with so I'm wondering about the role of religion in an area like this especially at a time when you arrived during the recession. What role do you think religion can play in an area like this?

JT: Well, first of all uh...I should say that I can understand why Mark's would say what he did, because the christian religion began in an era in history where uh...the common man was uh...a thing to be used uh...a tool and of course you want to take care of your tools, but they are valued only as they are useful if I have a pair of pliers and I break one of the...one of the uh...jars I throw it away, because it's no longer useful in that sense uh...human beings were very worthless they were only valued as tools and so the uh...the christian religion along with other religions to, but the christian religion uh...made a point that life may be rough, but you've got something better to look forward to because of your faith in Christ and so, uh...that's like an opening you know it dulls the pain of the moment by stressing the beauty and the glory and the joy and the peace that's to come in eternity so, in that sense uh...Mark's observation is very understandable and in deed I had seen that here locally uh...there is a local Ministerial Association and a group of us from that Ministerial Association went down uh...near Abington there is uh...there is uh...a college down there uh...Emory and Henry, Emory and Henry College and we went down there to a program uh...one time uh...sort of continuing education for ministers and on the way going or coming I don't remember which uh...we passed along a stretch of road where they were some very, very nice houses and then right next to them some rather rusting, cruddy looking trailers I said you know what we've got a system that allows this kind of uh...walk on the one end and real poverty on the other, there's got to be something wrong and the response of the entire car load to my observation was John don't sweat it the Bible says the poor you will always have with you and therefore that's not to be worried about now that's...that is being, having religious, a religious attitude that is in deed an opeant in the worst sense of the word, opeant in that it dulls your senses to things that you are to be aware of now that's from my point of view of course uh...I just think that is wrong and that the church should indeed be working on that. Another observation in response to your question about the relation of the church to uh...social events whether it's an opeant or not social conditions uh...my observation is that the church has tended to address itself to the, the uh...personal problems of people uh...like uh...Christmas baskets folks that are not going to have a very nice Christmas, because they don't have enough food well, let's give 'em a Christmas basket or in some churches it's a continuing affair uh...the First United Methodist Church in Williamson for example has what they call a food pantry and it's a rule and they just keep it stocked every Sunday members of the congregation are encouraged to bring something uh...staples for the food pantry and they do and then people who have need for food are given food out of that pantry uh...I get involved uh...with helping I had a phone call today from a lady uh...in the Tug Valley area who's electricity's been turned off she wants some help uh...I...I met today as a matter of fact just before I came to talk with you I was helping a lady who lives in a trailer and she's got a couch and a chair, no bed, no dresser, that's a couch and a chair that's all and so I was helping her get some furniture uh...that's been the kind of activity that the church has been involved in serving the personal needs of the people and I really don't mean to say that is bad I think that's very good and needs to be done if I didn't I wouldn't be doing it, but the churches intended to stop at that point and has not ended as a denomination or as uh...the Christian Church as a whole has not tended to look at the conditions that have caused the inability to buy food or the inability to pay a light bill or the inability to buy furniture uh...the church has not tended to get at the root causal factors and uh...that's one of the things that I been interested in doing down here and uh...I think that really is what the church ought to be doing, now I'm not alone and I'm no uh...I'm not unique in this there are others in other...in other there are other Methodist, there are other Protestants and there are other Catholics uh...who are uh...feeling the same way and are beginning to work in other areas uh...I know a minister up in the Huntington area for example who started his own employment service uh...he saw unemployment in his area and he said to himself well, no wonder they can't their light bill they don't have a job so, let's get 'em a job so out of that groove a kind of parallel and as a matter of fact he told me one time that uh...the State Employment Office used to call him and say we've got a guy that needs uh...certain kind of job you got anything to offer. (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: So, uh...its that kind of...of working on some of the root causes for uh...family and personal uh...problems that uh...appeals to me.

B: My next question Dr. Taylor is I was talking off tape about there seems to almost have been a diconomy [sic] between the social activism of the Methodist Church the overall thrust of that yet of what seem to would've been a very conservation congregation it being a middle class uh...business managerial type uh...congregation how has the Methodist Church dealt with that and I assume that it probably would've been a real problem in Matewan?

JT: It uh...it has been a problem down through the years uh...all over in the United Methodist Church uh...and I would suppose that it was a problem here in Matewan too and one of the lingering results of that very kind of diconomy that you point out is that today the United Methodist Congregation here in Matewan is perceived by a lot of people who have never been inside it, but is perceived by them as being cold and aloof and uh...rather haunting or superior and of course those of us who are in the Congregation uh...wonder where in the world did that get that idea we are so warm. (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: But uh...your observation is, I think an accurate one socially it's been very difficult to handle and the those churches that have, those congregations that have been active have been perceived as being somewhat paternalistic and uh...that could very well you know be an accurate perception in some cases they may very well have been a paternalistic its like AT Massey which is the modern inheritor of the role of coal manager uh...from days gone by and uh...now they put money into uh...lighting the baseball diamond or building the uh...football field and uh...erecting the bleachers and paying for pavement on the roads uh...well, now is that being enlightened uh...socially responsible or is it being paternalistic, because they feel that, that will keep the people quiet and uh...and kind of appease them so that they won't be so anger at the coal company which is it you know its kind of hard to say and the same thing in the church uh...people who sit there in the congregation and listen to the preacher preach uh...and uh...think about their role as uh...manager of a factory or a mine or uh...the uh...operator of the bank or the manager of a store uh...the people who hire and direct other people uh...their going to listen to that preaching of the gospel through a screen of interest and responsibilities that kind of filters out some aspects of the gospel and uh...it's alive today you know I don't know what would happen in the Matewan United Methodist Church if somebody were to come in next Sunday uh...who hadn't had a bath for a week and didn't have on socks and who's jeans were torn uh...and uh...who's hair was dirty and they sat down in the pew what would be the reaction of the people? That persons a child of     you know and when you look at it from an objective point of view you would say oh, I would hope that they would be welcomed uh...well, I'm not sure their not quote "us". I think most churches do the same thing its just that different churches uh...develope [sic] different uh...I don't know what word I'm looking for different uh...attractions for different kinds of people and uh...church groups like most other social organizations tend to be socially homogenous well, that I guess what a sociologists would say, churches are socially homogenous groupings, their volunteer groups nobody can say you've got to go that church and so the result is you tend to be attracted to a associate with like persons.

B: Right, okay.

JT: And uh...that happens in the Methodist Churches just like any other doesn't make it right uh...and uh...when were being idealistic we like to think that uh...our groups are uh...inclusive and would welcome others uh...I'm not really sure.

B: How does that fit in to the uh...say the national organization or even within the State of West Virginia? Are there Methodist Congregations else where that perhaps have attract a different layer of society there say then what has come to the Methodist Church in Matewan?

JT: I don't know West Virginia well enough to say I've only been in West Virginia since 1979 and serving in the church only for the last 7 years uh...so I really don't have that kind of an association I would suspect while congregations will vary the variation will not be from one extreme of the social spectrum to the other tends to be more clustered in the middle class uh...group than, than any other I do not know of any churches that have a reputation of being uh...lower class churches, lower class social economic uh...there are some in the cities that have the reputation of being upper class churches uh...but once again that's been the history of most of the what we would call uh...the main stream denominations the main line churches the Presbyterians, the Hailens, the Lutherans uh...the Methodist.

B: I know before we started the tape we had talked briefly about uh...the perception that the main line churches have been losing ground, say especially over the last 20 years to uh...for lack of a better word fundamentalist churches, the new, the born again, the I'm not even sure how to say it type of church the personal the personal revolutory experience a personal conversion experience uh...what are your feelings about that? Do you see it as being true, the main line churches losing ground?

JT: There's no doubt about it uh...the facts speak for themselves the United Methodist Church is losing on the average the American United States, United Methodist Church is losing on the average one thousand members per month (laughing) in't that incredible.

B: (Laughing) Yeah.

JT: When you put it like that it sounds way how does the church stay, well of course we've got nine or ten million members uh...but uh...we are losing on the average one thousand members per month and so the what you have described is indeed reality uh...and it would be     of me to say that I know why I can only tell you what my personal feelings are and I hope understand that I share them with reservations and with uh...with an open mind to other, other ideas that might change my, my attitudes I'm very tentative about it, but uh...I think that uh...churches like other organizations the Boy Scouts, Women's Club of America other volunteer organizations uh...go through cycles that's part of the answer and that's related to leadership uh...I think with regard to the church as a unique social structure that is uh...something that's got a body of faith, belief about it that the Boy Scouts wouldn't have, the Women's Club of America wouldn't have uh...I think that uh...any church that loses sight of either the importance of the personal experience of     redeeming grace on the one hand or the importance of expressing that in one's daily living concerned for one's fellow man uh...makes a big mistakes and pays the price in the long run and uh...so, there's this sythical experience there is also the fact that my experience with the United Methodist Church has been that its tended to lose that, that uh...the its lost, its concern for the experience and they've had the social action people, but they've not been faith oriented at least my experience with 'em is that they are social activist and they would be social activist if they were in Rotary Club or Kiwanis uh...as well as the United Methodist Church the fact that their a church its just a vehicle for them to express their social concern and that's not the church and it therefore looses its concern also as a group begins to succeed socially, economically and goes up it tends to become more and more closed and we have not continued to be on the frontiers of America and the result is that we've stopped growing and now we are declining and so there's a lot of that, that uh...we uh...we've got to blame ourselves for that lose of membership.

B: So has it been the lose of membership, has it been say uh...members of congregations dying off and not being replaced?

JT: Yes, that's my experience here that's the experience here in Matewan uh...those ministers here's one pictured here a     in years gone by uh...those ministers down through the years who have had the reputation of being really good with the young people have not really left young people in the church uh...they may have been good I don't know you know maybe uh...parties or something that kept the kids coming, but uh...they hadn't ended up as active members in the church so that we've not we have not brought in new people to take the place of those who either move away or die away, die off that's sad.

B: If you don't mind I might change the focus here for a couple of minutes and perhaps talk a little bit about Methodist Theology uh...how is uh...how does the Methodist Theology relate to say in contrast to some of the other religions in the area? What is it about? Can you explain some of the central tenants of Methodist Theology is?

JT: Uh...the United Methodist Church is what would be called an inclusive church it is not what would be called a doctrinaire church in order to be a member of the United Methodist Church you are not expected to agree to set doctrine now that's not the case in say the Presbyterian Church or the Lutheran Church uh...in those churches you will be taught uh...what you believe about the virgin birth, about the holy spirit, about anyone of a number of doctrines uh...and in some cases you'll even memorize the answers to questions that will be ask of you when you get ready to join the church that's a doctrinaire church in which you agree to a set doctrine that's not the case the United Methodist Church so the result is that there is a wide variety of beliefs within the United Methodist Church the United Methodist Church does have a set of statements of belief that they were written by John Wesley back in the 18th century uh...and it turn they were adapted from the statements of religion of the Church of England so you know what we've got is sort of uh...middle of the road, solid traditional uh...christian doctrine, but uh...its not the sort of thing that somebody is asked to uh...to accept uh...as personal beliefs so it's a little difficult to say we've got a very strong movement in uh...the United Methodist Church today uh...which really is pretty fundamental uh...fundamentalists uh...at the same time that we've got these social action people that I was talking about a minute ago uh...which to me sounds like two different extremes.

B: Right.

JT: Uh...one saying all you got to have is the experience that's what     expects uh...have faith in     and your showing for heaven on the one hand and it doesn't not matter what you do in your daily living as long as you say you got that faith and the other saying uh...well as long as I'm out doing good deeds surely got a place for me in heaven those are two extremes seems to me you've got both of those in the United Methodist Church so it's hard to say that the United Methodist Church believes this.

B: Maybe I'll ask some questions, because as I've mentioned there's some Methodist background in my own family and I've heard the term and my mother suggested that I ask you what to a Methodist does an act of grace mean? Is that antigrated [sic] term to you or do you what I'm referring to?

JT: It's an old term, but its uh...grace is uh...something that is given without being earned when you say that a person is a gracious person their being nice to you whether you're nice to them or not that's a gracious person and an act of grace is an act in which somebody does something for someone else whether they deserved it, whether they've earned it or not and when put in the christian perspective the act of grace is     offer of forgiveness uh...and his continuing love and support whether we deserve it or not or uh...in spite of the fact that we don't deserve it would be a better way to put it uh...so that's what an act of grace is the and within the religious context the act of grace is offer of forgiveness of salvation uh...without your having to earn it it's free.

B: If there...unless there is something that I haven't ask you thus far I thought we might move into the your role in the Development Center and the Advisory Counsel, in terms of the Center's history itself...unless is there anything else that you'd like to add about uh...your experience?

JT: As a matter of fact, I've already begun uh...leading into that without knowing it. Uh...this comment about the church tending to uh...to work on persons personal problems, like helping them to pay a light bill or get their car repaired when they can't afford to do it and that sort of thing without going at the root causes whether inability to pay their bills uh...is what has lead me to feel that it's appropriate for me as clergyman to lead my congregation in uh...this direction and to spend a lot of my time in doing the kinds of things that have come now to be.

The Development Center didn't start out that way and I can not say that where we are today is a result of my foresight. Uh...actually the way it got started was in the Rotary Club when I first came to uh...Matewan. Let's see, were you at the uh...signing of the memorandum? I traced a little bit of the history for the folks when I moved to Matewan. One of the things that I did, as I went around town and met people, I began to ask them uh...how things got done around here. (It) wasn't that I wanted to uh...worm my way in so much as that I wanted to...just wanted to...find out the lay of the land. I noticed, for example, that there are some bushes planted down here at the end of the sidewalk. And, I noticed that around the underpass there are some flowers there and uh...these potted trees uh...on the other side of the street there in front of the uh...what's now the used car lot. Uh...those were uh...a little incongruous. They were out of place in this muddy, dirty uh...community. And so uh...how did those get to be there. And, I kept finding again and again that either the Rotary Club was involved or members of the Rotary Club on their own were doing it. So, I decided I ought to affiliate with the Rotary Club if the church was going to have an influence in the community. (I) needed to be where those people were "they were working" so I joined the Rotary Club. And, one of the things that I used to hold forth on every once in while was, gee whiz, the litter in this place is terrible. I've never lived in a place that had so much litter. And uh...so, that's what we got started talking about; it was not this Development Center at all. Uh...we gathered a group of people together, other than Rotary people, and we started meeting after Rotary Club. There were people from the Women's Club, and people from the Kiwanis, and just anybody that we knew that we thought that might be interested uh...in the concern. We ask them to come and we started talking about broader issues than just litter, but talking about litter too. And, gradually we came to see that the issues that we were discussing were too extensive, in this area, for us as a small group with no money, no authority, no power uh...to have much effect on it. So, uh...we began to sense that we needed some outside leadership. And Danny Moore, the president of the bank said that they would pledge, seems to me like he said, $25,000 thousand dollars if we could get somebody. So, we looked around for a period of, I don't know, six or eight months, I guess. We announced at Marshall and WVU (West Virginia University) and several places that uh...we were looking for somebody who'd come in here and uh...help us in the area of community development. The only applications we got were from people that clearly were looking for a way out of a bad situation. And, we didn't want that so we never did get anybody. And then one day a lady uh...who had come down here to work for the West Virginia Housing Authority and who was a Methodist uh...told me that she'd been to a professional meeting where she heard about this organization called "The Foundation for Urban and Neighborhood Development," FUND, and she thought it sounded like they did the kinds of things that we needed to help a community get itself organized; sort of a boot strap operation. Not somebody to come in with a lot of high power and say this is what you ought to do, you ought to do this, you ought to do that, you ought to do that. They came in and tried to help a community see how to organize itself, to accomplish it's own goals. And, I liked the sound of that so we got in touch with him and ultimately then we hired this group called FUND. And, uh... there're the ones that set up this office and they stayed for the better part of the year. Well, I say they, one the staff person that they had uh...here Don Taylor source of some confusion in town, "now are you talking about Don Taylor or John Taylor" uh...but, at any rate uh...Don was here for the better part of the year. And uh...not everything that he did was accepted here and not everything that he did has continued. But, he did indeed help us to get ourselves organized, he helped us to uh...clarify our goals and uh...to see to some ways that we could begin to move uh...it became clear, that we had to have money to do what we were talking about. Uh...I know that sometimes we say, it isn't money, it's people, and that's nice and that's true to a certain extent, but there is a need for our money. And once again, Dan Moore at the Bank came through and he said, "if you can get some matching money the bank will come up with a hundred thousand dollars over the next five years." That's a lot of money, uh...so we went to Rawl Sales and we said, "Hey, we got this really great offer here uh... what can you do" and, uh...they matched it. So, that was the money that we operated on, two hundred thousand dollars, over a period of five years. And, we're in about, I would guess, the third year of that now, I don't know. I've really kind of lost track of time. It has not been enough and we have continued to...well, your presence here has not come out of that money, it's come out of grant money that Paul McAllister was able to obtain. But uh...Paul was brought in here on that money. He is what has made it really, really work. Paul's an interesting guy uh...in some ways. He hardly seems suited for the job, because he is so quiet and so uh...kind of retiring uh...kind of scholarly uh...in a sense. And yet, he has gotten things organized and people are working. And when he ties into something it's done right. He's good on getting the details done as well as having a sense of uh...purpose of mission kind of overall.

B: Dr. Taylor, at the end of the last tape we were discussing uh...some of your visions for the future, as far as the role of the Development Center in economic development in the community?

JT: Yes, uh...there are a lot of people here in town who have native talents and abilities. Some have already developed those in skills, but who do not have the experience, the training or the expertise to develop those into successful business ventures. And we need to provide some kind of help to those people, in the term of incubator. My wife was born and raised on a farm, was asking me about it and she couldn't remember the word incubator and she says she said uh...what have you been doing about that brutter (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: Well, you know, she...you know that's she's got the idea an incubator is a place where you provide a...sort of uh...a hot house experience for a business. You put them in the climate geared for success. Eighty percent of small businesses that start in America today fail within the first five years; the primary reason is poor decision making, and those decisions uh...are related partially to uh...economic decisions. Somebody goes out and buys equipment they don't really need, and then their burden with big bills, the overhead goes up so high that they can't charge enough to cover their overhead and then they fail. They are related to poor decisions about uh...the market. They have a feeling that, gee, I'd really love to make this widged (?) I think I could make the best widged in the world. And maybe they can, but maybe there's no market for a widged and so they fail. Another poor kind of decision making has to do with the flow of cash, the keeping of records, or the flow of cash, when do you have to pay your state license to operate, what kind of taxes do you have to pay, what kind of money should you be setting aside for unemployment compensation or whatever, those kinds of decisions. And, if we could provide...I talked about the use of this room as an incubator...if we could have in the office there, instead of Paul, somebody that would handle the books, could handle the books for several businesses with computers today. Wouldn't...the business wouldn't even have to be here in this room, the business could be some place else and it could be tied in with a motive. The uh...the record keeping could all be done here, in a professional kind of a way, so that uh...if the runner or the operator of the business said uh..."hey, I've got to go out and buy a new gizmo here," this person could say "you better wait about six months cause you really don't have the money for that right now," you know, and help them with those kinds of decisions. There could be a central place for uh...doing uh... correspondence. There could be a central place, let's say to handle a telephone or that sort of thing. I know a place right now where I could get about thirty industrial quality sewing machines. I think I could get 'em for a song. They're just sitting there, they're not being used. I think we could develop a business for women here in Matewan uh...you know that warehouse building that the church owns there next to the church uh...I could see that upstairs (would be) plenty big enough for those thirty machines. And any other space that such a business would require uh...and help them to get started. And when they did get themselves well established, their market created some stability to the thing and felt like they could then go into the expense of building a building of their own, let 'em do that. And then they could move out and we could start something else over there. I think that would be very appropriate for the church to do. As it is now there are a lot of the women in this area who's husbands are working in the mine uh...and uh...when they go out on these wildcat strikes or a strike of their own or when they get laid off, because an order is filled and the manager doesn't have another order their income goes to zilch and their really hurting. If the women in those families were involved in a business with income of their own it wouldn't be quite so traumatic in the family when the husband was income was cut off or drastically curtailed. A fellow lived down at the bottom of the hill from me uh...worked in the mines as a regular miner, not a manager or not a foreman, or anything, just a regular miner and he used to bring home $120 dollars a day; that's straight time. And when they had an order to fill they used to like...to have 'em work on Saturday's and if they worked on Sunday's it be double time, vacation, holidays, triple time. So, $120 dollars a day, you know, that adds up that's a lot of money. And then, strike pay, $200 dollars a month, wow, you know, that hardly cuts it. So, if the women could just have uh...the means of generating income of their own it would really be a step forward in creating some economic stability in this area. I think that would help to decrease the number of people who need help with their light bills, and need help with the overdue rent, and that sort of thing. And that's what the church should be involved in.

B: Since this is an area of your concern you may know something about this, I've gotten the idea that this area is sort of a traditional society still yet. Are you saying that there are still the majority of the homes in this area are single occupation where the husband works and the wife does not or...?

JT: My impression is, and I don't have any data for this, but my impression is, that there is a higher percentage of single income families here than in the other areas where in which I've lived.

B: And that...do you think that may be a draw back to the economic development obviously?

JT: Yes, definitely, definitely. And couple that with the fact that so many of the men who do work, work in mine or mine related occupations, it ties our...our whole Tug Valley economy to one industry. And we need to uh...we need to uh...diversify our economy for and to get women working in some of their, the kinds of things that they might do well at, would be uh...a move in that direction. I think we should look into other kinds of things as well. Some people have spoken about uh...timber as a potential, I think there is a potential there, I'm not really sure how great it is. In this area there are a lot of trees but I'm not sure that they are uh...marketable, I'm just...I don't know. Tourism is a possibility and that's where Paul has been putting his...his emphasis, in terms of economic development, on the development of tourism. And, I think there is potential there uh...but, well, I don't know how limited that is. I sure don't want (it) to become another disney land I you know.

B: It's another...tourism is another form of exploitation in many cases, in some areas you know.

JT: That's an interesting observation. Yeah, that right.

B: We have been talking about the possibilities for this areas development. And, I guess a question that's comes to my mind from here is uh...do you see Matewan as your final stop as a minister or how long do you see yourself staying in this area?

JT: Yes, I do see it as my final stop, but you have to remember that the Bishop could change my mind by a reappointment, you know. But, I'm just three years from retirement and trying to put myself in the Bishop's place. It doesn't make much sense to send me somewhere else. So, I'm not really worried about him deciding uh...to appoint me somewhere else I think as long as I'm doing what he considers to be a good job here why he would reappoint me here. Now, the people in the congregation might feel that they need another kind of leadership. They might ask the Bishop to send another kind of minister, I mean someone else let's say a younger minister who would be good with the young people, for example. That could happen uh...but uh...unless that does, I see myself remaining here and I have a target of retirement in about three years. I think this place will keep me busy here for at least three years. So, that's what I anticipate would happen. I've told the uh...board of the Development Center that I want to be replaced here and I would expect that at the next meeting, that would be the reason for that, it's not because I'm dissatisfied. I hope to remain on the board. I'm...I forget...I think, I'm on a two year term, so, I'd have another year to go on the board. And, I would hope to remain on the board, but just not with the responsibility of the chair. Because, I'm going to be the president of the Rotary Club this year and that's another organization with uh...activities that we've already talked about and I'd like to see that developed. Rotary Clubs, like churches, go through cycles and the Rotary Club is uh...due to change direction. I thinks it's at the nator(?). I think it's the bottom of a cycle and it's time for us to uh... regroup, reorganize and rejuvenate. And uh...so that's what I'll be working in this next year, focusing my activities.

B: Speaking as a person who's not been involved in a church since she was five years old, I'm interested how does a minister uh...make it from day to day? Who pays a minister salary? Is the overall church organization? Is it the local congregation? How does a minister get by?

JT: Uh...in the United Methodist Church the uh...there are two ways normally the salary of the minister is set by the congregation that he serves and then is paid by the contributions of the members of the church to the budget that's set up uh...there are some churches that are too small to be able to afford to do that congregations of kind of withered away or maybe there just no possibility of growth. We have United Methodist Churches in very tiny hamlets that couldn't possibly support a full time minister if the annual conference agrees that a United Methodist Church needs to be kept in that community then the annual conference will subsidize whatever it is that the local congregation can pay up to some uh...minimum level we call it the minimum salary there is a minimum salary that's set every year at annual conference uh...and if let us say that if the annual's...if the minimum salary was set for $15,000 thousand dollars and the Matewan Church could only pay $12 thousand dollars then the annual conference would add $3 thousand dollars to that so that I'd get at least a minimum of $15 thousand dollars. I don't know what it is right now, but that's the way it works. This congregation has historically been quiet capable of uh...paying the minister I think that...that there is a breaking point and I have been hesitate so the last couple of years I've not ask for an increase in salary uh...although I am iminitely [sic] qualified. (laughing)

B: (Laughing)

JT: But uh...uh...you know you just reach a point where you can't keep going up and up and up I think what I'd like to do once this Development Center gets working the way I'd like to see it working and the Rotary Club gets going the way it's suppose to be in my view it's suppose to be growing and serving the community uh...I'd like to be able to spend more time on uh...some of the evangelistic or the out reach aspects of the life of the church, which should result in uh...growing membership and then that should result in growing budget and at that point then maybe my salary could grow to so that's kind of a view to the future I don't know.

B: What does a retired minister do? What follows his last Parish assignment?

JT: I suppose uh...it depends (on) like in any other job on uh...the interest of the minister. I've got so many things that I'd like to do, that I will be hard pressed to get them done or to decide where to start uh...I have felt kind of like uh...I've had a second class education in that, I don't know how to use a computer, I don't know word processing you know and uh...I would like to be able to learn how to use a word processor and then I want to take that knowledge and I want to develope an index of our hymnal uh...and I think actually the index that I could create I could sell and would provide a supplement to my retirement income uh...when I plan a sermon I do it around a certain passage of scripture and I would like to be able to choose hymns for the worship service that are related to the theme of that passage of scriptures so that it all has a sort of a combined impact whatever that impact was suppose to be, but we don't have an index for that and I would like to index all of the hymns in our hymn book according to related scripture passages and I could do that most readily with a computer.

B: You could.

JT: So, that's what I want to do, that's one of the things. Uh...so we have bought a house that we will live in and I'm sure that there will be all kinds of things. My wife is already saying we need a wall here, we need another window over there and we need to put more cabinets in the kitchen here and so I've got all kinds of uh.. ..jobs there to do uh...I love to fly and I like talking with people about flying and uh...I love teaching ground school and I would hope that in retirement from Pastoral Ministry I'll be able to uh...to do some more teaching of uh...new pilots uh...and then I think it would be fun uh...to be a part of a congregation not the leader of it and so I'm looking forward to being able to just be on a committee just sing in the quire, because I like it uh...that sort of things.

B: Be one of the Indians?

JT: Yeah, right...right so uh...those kinds of things I'm looking forward to my wife has recently since we moved to Matewan discovered her historic roots in Germany her parents were born in America, but Eleanor's grandparents on both sides, both her mother's parents and her father's parents were all born in Germany and uh...she's been over there twice since we've moved to Matewan and I've been over there once uh...with her uh...meeting relatives and seeing the country and getting to learn the culture and so one of the things we'd like to do after we retired is to uh...trade houses with somebody in Germany and go over there and live for six or eight months and really get to understand the language and the culture and the people uh...so that's another thing we'd like to do and then have that family whoever they are come and live in our house over here that would cut down on the expense a lot living in hotels ooooh... boy.

B: Dr. Taylor one of my last questions for you deals with the... the role of women in this community. We've been talking around that subject and I was just wondering how you view women in general and then you can discuss it as related to the church and also to the community here in Matewan if you'd like?

JT: Okay, well I've observed here in the Matewan area uh...more strongly than anywhere else that I've ever lived this uh...the uh...vestiges of this patriot article uh...societal structure uh... and people laugh about it, but they still talk about the woman's place is to be barefoot and pregnant. Her place is at the home. She's not suppose to be out and uh...men will take it as uh...a real threat to their masculinity if the woman in his family works or expresses the desire to work or needs to work they'd rather suffer abject poverty than have their women work. Uh...so there is a lot of that down here. Uh...I personally feel that that's very unfortunate uh...some of my I've had personal experience that uh... uh...has helped me to overcome whatever uh...bias. I may have had as far as the uh...appropriate place of women in the economy is partly because when I was the Associate Dean of Students at uh... Atobine [sic] College in Westaville Ohio. The Dean of Students my boss was a woman and when I was on the faculty at Catholic University the Dean of the school of education was a woman a nun uh...and uh.. ...so I had my I've had experience in relating as a subordinate to a woman superior and uh...

B: How is that compared to having a superior that was a man? Have you noticed? Was there a difference that you noticed?

JT: Not that I was aware of...it worked out very well uh...as far as I was concerned. I hope it worked out well as far as they were concerned, but uh...at any rate I've had that kind of experience which probably most of the guys have not had uh...coupled with the uh...the religious background uh...     related to women as uh...as people who were worthy of his attention and just as he did the men and uh...he treated them as children of     and uh...so I should do no less than that and that helps in the way that maybe some of the other men down here don't have uh...the with regard to the church I'm really quiet pleased with the uh...with the position that the United Methodist Church has taken for some years now women have been ordained uh...so they've not only been in leadership roles in the United Methodist women who used to call it the Lady's Aides Society uh...but they've been professional leaders as well members of the clergy and as a result of that now we have women being elected to the position of Bishop and we have several women Bishop's uh...reporting to each Bishop in every annual conference are persons I referred to just once before District Superintendents they are responsible for a district which is a geographic area within an annual conference and uh...we in West Virginia have several women District Superintendents there are eleven districts and three of the district superintendents are women so while that may not be equal it certainly is representative may be even more uh...a higher proportion of District Superintendents are women than members of the Clergy in West Virginia are women so their getting represented in leadership roles uh...and in our seminaries today uh...there are more women than men so the day soon will come when Matewan will have a women Clergy I'm sure woman minister in the United Methodist Church bound to happen I've already begun preparing people by saying oh! How would you react if there was a woman here as a Clergy cause they need to be thinking about that it's gonna happen.

B: Have you met any of your fellow ministers that are women? Have they discussed...there's an Episcopal priest I suppose you call it in my hometown that is a woman and she refers to one of her problems as a women is, show of emotion, because they view it as in the Episcopal Church a women being to emotional is hysterical where as a man is just getting into his sermon. I was wondering if any of the uh...Methodist minister ladies it's odd to say minister being referred to woman.

JT: Clergy woman.

B: Yeah, clergy woman.

JT: Uh...I've not talked to any of 'em about it as a matter of fact I don't know any closely, I don't know any well and there are none around here uh...close enough that I would have frequent contact with them so I just can't answer that. I don't know whether they've run in...I suppose they have run into some of that prejudice and the carry over of uh...feeling that the uh...the uh... pastor is supposed to be the leader, the dominant person and uh... how can a woman be dominant the woman supposed to be subordinate, submissive and that sort of thing. They probably have all those things to overcome and the ministry just as they have in business except for those traditional functions teacher, nurse and that sort of thing you know.

B: How has your wife...we haven't really discussed you personal life very much...how has your wife viewed her role as the wife of a minister?

JT: Well, we met in college and so that was one of the things she had to think about and that's one of the things we've talked about while we were still just dating you know when we gotten serious and started talking about marriage that's one of the things that we've discussed so that she had thought that through ahead of time for her it meant a change in denomination, cause she was raised a Baptist and it meant uh...that she would be in the what then was called the Methodist Church uh...and so I guess she worked that thing out before we got married, she was ready for that it did not come as a surprise to her uh...plus she's had a profession of her own she is a teacher, she is also a musician, her bachelors degree is in music education and she began teaching as a music teacher, but became interested through some personal experience with uh... her work with special children and so her masters degree is in special education and uh...and so she's had rather a rewarding and satisfying as well as demanding career of her own uh...outside of my career so she has not just been the preacher's wife she's uh...person in her own right.

B: That's fascinating. If there isn't anything else that we haven't covered I think.

JT: I think we used all the tape. (laughing)

B: Three.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection