Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Basil Hatfield Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center Oral History Project Summer 1989. I'm in the home of Mr. Basil Hatfield who is the grandson of Valentine Hatfield and we're going to talk today about his reminisces of the Hatfield and...

Basil Hatfield: Hold it a minute, you say the grandson of who.

B: You're the grandson of Valentine Hatfield, right?

BH: Yeah, that's right I thought you said John Walton.

B: Well, Mr. Hatfield my first question is when you were born and where you were born.

BH: I was born at Buskirk Kentucky, what they call the bend of the river down below the between the, across from the Hatfield Bottom. You know what to ask me.

B: Right, Okay. You were born at the bend of the river at Buskirk.

BH: Yeah, what they call the bend of the river Hatfield Bend, put the Hatfield Bend.

B: Okay. And what year was that.

BH: December the sixth, 1903 when I was born. I'm eighty-five and half years old, I'll be eighty-six in December.

B: And who were your parents.

BH: John Wallace Hatfield and Nancy Scott Hatfield.

B: And I notice you have some information here that says how old when your parents were born, could you tell me that.

BH: My fore parents before them?

B: Yes sir.

BH: My parents...my grandfather's name was Valentine Hatfield.

B: Okay.

BH: He was better known as Uncle Wall that's what they call him Uncle Wall. My grandmothers name was Polly Vance Hatfield...she was a sister to the bad Jim Vance one of the Hatfield's because she was a sister, Jim Vance was her brother. They call him "bad Jim Vance" one got his arm shot off during that trial.

B: Now you're par...Who were your parents, you said your father was John Wallace...

BH: John Wallace Hatfield and Nancy Scott Hatfield.

B: And you have his birth date and death date...

BH: Yeah, I've got everyone of 'em.

B: Okay.

BH: John Wallace Hatfield was born April the fourth, 18 and 60.

B: Okay. And he died 1929.

BH: Yell, he died August the 29th, nineteen and twenty-nine.

B: Okay.

BH: My mothers name was Nancy Jane Scott, born at Hardy Kentucky, born May the twenty-third, eighteen and sixty-three.

B: Okay.

BH: Deceased February 22nd, nineteen and twenty-two. Do you want to get her mother and...

B: Yes, sir.

BH: Her daddy was John Brisco, and grandmothers name was Harriett Farley Scott, she was a Farley before she was married.

B: Okay.

BH: Grandpa was born December the 1st, eighteen and forty-two. Deceased January the 13th, nineteen and sixty-three, no it's thirty-six. I reckon that's right, better correct that 1936, yell that's right. Harriet Farley Scott was born January the 9th, eighteen and forty-three. Deceased in 1918, I don't have the month.

B: Okay. And you say you were telling before I started the tape that your father was the one that carried the McCoy boys home, would you tell me that story.

BH: Yes, that's what I'm going to get to.

B: Okay.

BH: The morning of the shooting you know what it started over there with that don't you.

B: Well, would you like to tell me so...

BH: Yes, I would be glad to tell you. They had election held election down here on the mouth of Blackberry election day old man Anse...Anderson Hatfield was the justice of peace. Uncle Ford was a Constable, so they was always drinking, they got up there and got into a racket. Ellison Hatfield could whip Ford man any Ford man they said they was nobody that could whup Ellison Hatfield. Ellison Hatfield had three of them down they was four of the McCoys one of them jumped off the horse and hauled the other one down the rump and stabbed him in the back, so the rest of the boys, the rest of the McCoy boys they was going to take them to Pikeville, Devil Anse calls 'em and tells not to take them to Pikeville let him help 'em, so he takes 'em and comes and get 'em and takes 'em down to Magnolia, above Matewan you know where Magnolia holler is don't ya, kept them all night they told these McCoy boys if Ellison Hatfield dies tonight you fellers die in the mornin', so we got word the next mornin' early mornin' saying that he died, they brought him across the river up there tie around Buskirk, I could show you in ten foot where this happen, tied him to some papa bushes, shot him and left him lay there in the road, well there they was their dad lived down the road a quarter of a mile all of 'em, you know how news got out they were just laying there, there they laid in the road no way to get 'em home, no automobiles, no roads or nothing so daddy took a sled and when grandpa put 'em on that sled and hauled 'em to Blackberry Fork over here oh about ten miles, wore his sled out on top of it. Two yokes of ox, put two yokes of oxes, his cattle got hot him he had to take 'em to eleven o'clock he never go home until eleven o'clock that night, he wore his sled out he had a half sled on his way back. Little Sam Pauley, they called him little Sam Pauley, he married my daddy's sister, he come with daddy, he was only soul, him and daddy brought 'em and delivered 'em over here at Blackberry Fork. My mother was worried to death about him, she thought they kill him while he was gone, she wouldn't go to bed until he got back home, you know she worried pretty grandpa was a man that never bothered nobody, he got along with everybody, like the McCoys and Hatfields all good friends and he said it wouldn't do to leave 'em lay there in the road and he must take 'em home, so that how come daddy take 'em home. My daddy wasn't married at that time, my daddy was twenty years old when that happened. I told her they picked up at Buskirk, you got that ain't ya.

B: Yes, sir.

BH: And hauled to Blackberry Fork over here I bet ya about ten miles from there, I don't know exactly what it's near by...ten miles. I didn't know that my daddy lived over there, I thought well I was born and raised on down below there, but at that time I reckon he got him and mother got married and he moved down on the other place, so I was born down at the other place. Now that's about all I know about the Hatfield and McCoy, now I could tell one Devil Anse Hatfield was a good friend of my daddy he come and visit my daddy often I wasn't born at that time, but my older brothers knew him they thought the world of him, that why I know about it and he was just a nice old feller.

B: Okay. Did anybody ever talk about how he got his nickname, what did the tell about how he got his nickname.

BH: Devil Anse.

B: Uh-huh.

BH: Well, he never got it that was after he got in that trouble, after he got in all that trouble, him and Ryan McCoy got in that trouble, they called him the Devil Anse, I don't know if they had an original nickname for Ryan McCoy, but Ryan McCoy was a fine old man too, both of them was fine people, they was good people. I'm going to tell you a little joke.

B: Okay.

BH: Man went to see Devil Anse one time, Devil Anse had two holes cut in the door, two big holes for the cats and this man said uh... Devil Anse what else cut those holes in the door said for the cats, he said why didn't you just cut one, when I say scat I mean scat.

B: Okay. So did you ever met Devil Anse.

BH: No, I never did meet him, I wudn't (wasn't) born at that time, my older brothers now were a lot older than I was, they remember sittin' in his lap and all that stuff, used to visit us at home, but I've seen his brothers, his brother used to come to my house a lot of time, but I never did see nothing but Deviled Anse pictures all over I seen and Devil Anse met Ryan McCoy and Johnson McCoy. Johnson and Ryan didn't have no gun Devil Anse told Johnson to lay down and waller in that mud hole and he did, he said now Ryan you lay down there, and he said Ryan said now listen Uncle Anse, I don't have no gun, but you can shoot me if you want to but I'm not laying down there in that mud hole, Uncle Anse petted him on the shoulder and said you got too much nerve to die I not going to bother you no how.

B: What other kind of stories do you remember from when you were little.

BH: How's that.

B: What other stories do you remember from when you were little.

BH: That's about all on the Hatfields and all I knowed now I'll tell you about that paper that they got out is not true. What it come up over, by this time one of the boys said Johnson Hatfield fell in love with a McCoy girl and they took her home, but he stoled her and took her home and when he got home with her he was going he was going keep her from going and Mrs. McCoy's mother said you're not taking that girl over to the barn if you thought enough of her and you love her enough and she loves you enough you bring her to the house, you're going to treat her like a lady, if you can't do that...she was a nice lady...and they kept her there and she died in a miscarriage some way another in childbirth some way or another and they buried her. Well Mrs. McCoy worried about her, she thought they just took her out and throwed her in a whole, covered her up you know and she worried about it and Mrs. McCoy found out about the old lady Hatfield, Devil Anse was worrying her so much that the McCoys found out so Devil Anse wife sent for her, told her I want you to come and visit me I got something I want to show you, so she took her and showed her the grave, where they buried her and everything and told her said I put her away just as nice as she'd been my own. We put her away and put all kinds of. Your daughter was not mistreated here, so they made friends and had big joy over there, now that's all I know about the Hatfields and McCoys. I thought that would be put in there, and that's the facts about it. Now I'll tell ya what I started to tell you awhile ago, what come up over was some hogs, that she already took the girl and they was jealous over that, well they had some hogs and the hogs got in the field, they killed the hogs, just left them lay, I would have paid for shows, dressing 'em and cleaning 'em, never bothered them hogs, the hogs laid right there in the field where they shot 'em. Well they took some of 'em and put 'em in the pen, now they went and looked at 'em and they was Floyd Hatfield had two of the pigs in the pen, now went to the law about it, proved out in Floyd Hatfield did have two of their hogs in the pen two or three of 'em, I don't know how many. That's all I know about the Hatfield and McCoy.

B: Now, was your grandfather the one that got put in prison.

BH: No.

B: No, he wasn't the one Hatfield that was in prison.

BH: No, No, No. They was two Wall Hatfield's, they was a Wall Hatfield on Beech Creek, there was two Valentine Hatfield's that's the reason they call my grandpa Uncle Wall, to establish one from the other. He was like a wall whenever he said anything when grandpa Hatfield always told me when he's like me when he said anything he meant it that's what he said and he'd always true and no foolishness about it, then a called him a stone, they call him off the wall.

B: Okay.

BH: Grandpa Hatfield and Elka Hensely's brother had some cattle and they lived at Hardy Kentucky, and they went across the mountain just cross over the mountain here at Hardy and you're in String town, so they went over in String town looking for their cattle, thought they might be over in there. Grandpa was going up the road and Cap Hatfield saw him coming and he thought he was Ryan McCoy I could show you where that was done at because he went behind a big chestnut tree up the hill oh...about two-hundred feet shot Grandpa he was aimed to kill him, but some way or another the rifle made a long fire I don't know how it shot him through the knee-cap and my Grandpa hobbled for the rest of his life over that and oh... Cap came to him after he found out who he was and tried to apologize to him grandpa got his knife out aimed to cut his head off and he runned and got away, grandpa was crippled had to get grandpa home and grandpa told he said you cowardly thing if you want to shoot Ryan McCoy why didn't walk up to him like a man and tell him you was going to shoot why did you hide like a hound dog and shoot somebody for, my grandpa wasn't scared of nothing.

B: You say that was your grandfather Scott.

BH: Yell.

B: Okay.

BH: John Brisco, you got his name up there.

B: Okay.

BH: He got his name, how grandpa got his name a brush he always worked in the mountains, he timbered all the time, cut timber, he was a timber man. Now did you uh...did you get grandpa Scott's wife and her.

B: Yes, Sir.

BH: Yell, you got that.

B: Did he work in the timber industry around here, did your grandfather Scott work the timber industry around here.

BH: He worked in timber around all of the country, he cut timber all around the sawmill, sold timber, he sold the lumber that made my daddy, when my daddy and mother got married he give daddy the lumber, now he hauled it from Narrow's branch to the Ben of the River built a log house, that's where I was raised at. They call it Narrow's Branch that's called Hardy's up the holler there that we know where Narrow's Branch is, Grandpa and Uncle Hense and Uncle Anse didn't all of 'em used to own all of Narrow's Branch, Uncle Andy owned down here over the supermarket, and Uncle Hense owned the next place, Grandpa owned the next off of Mark Scott owned the other.

B: Did they ever tell you how they moved, Did they ever tell you how they moved stuff down the river before the railroad came through.

BH: Oh, yell used to everything they got up the river they boated it everything. I used to boat liquor up the river when I was a little boy a would run out to the river and watch 'em. Why Buskirk would go down to Catlettsburg get a little whiskey.

B: That's what were asking people about is if how they remember things gettin' moved in out and of Matewan and the Railroads.

BH: The way they had them doin' it was by freight or something like that, there was no loaders, no automobiles I told that I was just half of it finally got roads you know, but they wasn't no roads just wagon roads some places down in the Ben of the River they were just all we could get was a sled there was no way to get to McCarr Kentucky all to Blackberry and up Blackberry they wasn't a road up the creek all the way you know the roads always been the creek, but down in the Ben of the River down there all the way we had was just a path that went in and out, I had to pick up the mail and all that stuff out of the Ben of the River had to ride a mule and had to come meals we raised corn all the time, and listen I want to put you back something else about that, I want to get back to that over there to that.

B: Okay. John W. Hatfield raised thirteen children, on the farm and never worked the day in public works in his life, made a living on the farm and raised thirteen children, eight boys and five girls and I'm the youngest one and the only one a living out of that bunch and you can put that in as you see fit, so you have it all down.

B: Okay.

BH: I reckon that's all I want to tell you about that.

B: Okay.

BH: Now you going to write anything up on that Phillips outfit over there.

B: Yes, sir.

BH: I don't know too much about that, but I'll give you what I know.

B: Okay.

BH: You got that turned off let me tell you, the Massacre happened in Matewan, The Baldwin Phelps (Felts) come and set the union men out of their houses, went over to the Urias Hotel to eat, my cousin Nancy Hatfield run the Urias Hotel, waiting to catch train number sixteen to home, number sixteen to Welch, fashion train home when they come across the street and got over to Cable Testerman's place. Cable Testerman run a drug store that place over there, that place had a jewelry shop over there, over to the Cable Testerman's...claim they had a warrant...call Cable Testerman out they walked out in front of the railroad just in front of Cable Testerman place and they told Cable Testerman they had for Sid Hatfield Testerman said let me see the warrant he reach Testerman the warrant Cable Testerman said this warrant is bogus and is no good and just tore it up. Well take him any how, so they went for their gun Sid Hatfield shot Albert Phillips and Lee Phillips both right there on the railroad, they first shot Testerman, they shot one other feller, but I don't know, both of them probably shot Cable Testerman. Sid shot both of them right there dead right there in Sprigg, then shooting started I never known there was ten or twelve people shot and they hid all over the place one of 'em run into Mr. Slow who was a depot agent, he run in there and hid and run into Albas where Slow was. Slow told him to get out of here or he said if you hide in here they'll kill me and you both, you get out of here, so he run in the freight station I heard him swear this on the witness stand, he run back in the freight station and got behind a big box that they shipped stuff in there and hid and when sixteen pulled in while they was loading these they killed they just picked them up and throwed them in the freight and he runned and got on the blind side he cut the blind side you know what a blind side is, he run up the blind side and he rode up to thacker or some place before he ever got in. Now there was another one I heard him state on the witness stand I was summoned in the trial I doubt it, this man x'ed him he said uh...what happened when Sid Hatfield shot, what did you do, he said I looked down aimed to get my gun out get my haze in, but some man grabbed my grip started with, he said he was a crippled man he was hoppin'. Well he said right here is this man, we got him here, we let him walk across the floor and see if that's the man, because he said I won't do it, he said all I know to tell you I didn't see his face and he was a crippled man and he took my gun and went off with it, what did you did you run or what, I was afraid to run said I walk slowly stood around to the sixteen come and I got the blind side, he hid some where but I don't know where he hid at, but he caught the blind side of sixteen, so I don't know how come they summoned me in that trial somewhere or another they found out where I lived and Bowser Coleman runned down there when the shootin' started he runned down below Matewan and runned right across the track with his coat over his head and flagged the train, stop sixteen way quarter of a mile down that road told 'em that everybody in Matewan was killed he didn't know they were shootin' all over the place, everybody in Matewan they just pulled in right slowly into Matewan, so they ask me on he witness stand did I see Bowser Coleman flag sixteen I told them I lived down the Ben of the River that's the way he run, he went to Sprigg where he went. I said no I didn't see him because he went through the tunnel and I live on down below the tunnel, so I was down there and they summoned me in that Phillips killing down there I listened to the trial.

B: What do you remember about being at the trial.

BH: How's that.

B: What do you remember about being at the trial, how did it go you know what do you...

BH: I just listened at the evidence I wasn't there when the uh... but they all come clear none of them went to jail I just went one day and they excused me. I was over there, the day I went as we come back and got off the train that even, I remember it very well we started home walking from Matewan down towards home rather we heard a shot, heard a woman squawl there was four of us me and Elbert Hatfield, my brother M.D. Hatfield and Chase Carl. Elbert hollered and heard he squawlin', hollering right straight over the river where were from. They consolidated company they went out right straight across from there, we was right there, Elbert said what's the matter over there said run over here. Max killed Eddie that's Max Hatfield shot his dad his was up there gambling, they lived down there at the tunnel, they had run brews down there, sold liquor down there.

B: Hmm! hmm!

BH: and they come up there to milk they had some cows to milk and feed and him Max was a professional gambler he sent him to school, learn him to gamble what he done he sold whiskey and Max would take him there to that table and gamble with him and take every bit of their money. Well, he was professional gambler and him and his daddy got into an argument and he shot his daddy and killed him, so he went on up to his brother and told his brother that he killed his daddy, we went over and went down where the river was up big we had to go to the bridge cross the bridge and walk back up to the river where they was and we put him on a set of bed springs four of us and carried him, oh that liked to broke me into, we carried him down home that was the day of the...

B: Okay. You say they run the Blue Goose, is that what you said.

BH: Yell, the Blue Goose, they sold whiskey for Bob Buskirk and Bob Buskirk was the only man in the state of Kentucky that could get license, it wudn't (wasn't) against the law to sell it he went over one night he slept with Roscoe Vanover, stay all night with Roscoe Vanover and left twenty-one hundred dollars under the pillar and told Roscoe Vanover to send him license and Roscoe Vanover sent him license and he's the only man in Pike County could have license to sell whiskey.

B: Really.

BH: That's when they started hauling this whiskey from Catlettsburg that I was telling you about, Bob Buskirk would send these men down there in this big boat they built, big long boat, this boat was about twenty-four feet long and about twelve feet wide they load that thing with whiskey and they'd push it along with poles 'til they got to the islands "the swift places" Eli stated that Bob Buskirk had a big black pair of mules and he meet 'em way down there at Stringtown and he'd hook on 'em and pull 'em through them shoals they couldn't make it up that swift water. Finally they put a wrench on the front of that line and put a line on it and rolled it, rolled theirselves up on it, go up here and hook to a tree and wrench theirselves up over the tree finally. I seen 'em bring in, I used to bring apples, I used to go down there and bring apples, salt, flour boated from Kenova West Virginia up to Matewan that's the way they only used. They used to boat it up the river.

B: Okay. Now what was the name of the man who son killed him, what was his name.

BH: Roland Hatfield.

B: Do you know what year that happened in? Do you remember what year that happened in?

BH: Well, let's see now that killing was in, what year do we got it there.

B: Uh...1920.

BH: It was the same, I don't know. Oh, I was a grown man when that. Me and you was married when that Phillips killing was, cause I was in Matewan when them police come, we all come up there with our guns and the State Police come in there the next morning after this took place, but it was somewhere after. Maybe you'll find out someway when that happen, it was about a year after that or six months that they was trying 'em down at Williamson.

B: Okay. What do you remember about the State Police coming into Matewan the day after the Massacre.

BH: We all belong to the union and they told us, I belong to you higher local me and my brother did and they told us they needed some of us from Matewan to up there at a certain time and we all walked from Sprigg up there and took our guns high-powered rifles and we got there when number four pulled in that morning they was four I guess they was three-hundred people on that, on that train. They said boys take your guns and go home, put 'em up, we'll take care of the situation.

B: Somebody told us that uh...well we've heard two different stories the night of after the Massacre had happened that night we've heard to different stories. We've heard one story that people in town celebrated and the other story that we have is that men from the union patrolled the town.

BH: They actually told you right, them fellers up there at Matewan patrolled the town all the local up there Red Jacket local, come from every place that's why they called us and told us to be there the next morning they was expecting more trouble, they wudn't (wasn't) no such a thing as celebratin' they was all worried to pieces...they was afraid that, they didn't know what time another crew might come in or something other. What they was thinking reason why they wanted us they was looking for some more to come on the next train down there and to do some more damage the boiling Phillips, they never come, so we was there in case they did come that's what we was there for now they wudn't (wasn't) no such a thing as celebratin', but everybody was mourning than anything else because some of their people, Cable Testerman killed 'em two or three. I would say three or four was killed there and they were more in the mourning state than anything else, what we was trying to do was keep somebody else from being killed and them people's stuff set out there in the rain, they throwed everything they had right out in the rain, everything the people in Matewan was tore all to pieces.

B: What do you remember about C.E. Lively?

BH: C.D. Lively was a Baldwin-Phelps (Felts). He slipped in there, got in there before this trouble was. He pretended he was a union man, getting all this news.

B: Ok, you were telling me about C.E. Lively.

BH: Yeah, C.E. Lively was a Baldwin-Felts detective, he slipped into Matewan and put up a place of business, uh...I think he runned a restaurant. He got all the news about what was going on and described Sid Hatfield what kind of a man he was and all the union and all the operated Stony Mountain Coal Company there were the man was all situated at and everything and finally they come down to throw these men out the houses and it was rainin' they went up there on Stony Mountain up. The camps was up above the railroad up there as you go up toward Red Jacket, they went up there and said everyone throwed out men and everyone of those fellows houses right out in the rain, it was rainin', drizzlin' rain set it all out, but after that he got away from Matewan just as fast as he could because he knowed they was goin' to find it out, so when they got went back there they told Sid Hatfield and Chambers and Reece Chambers and Edward Chambers they had a warrant for 'em in McDowell and they was going to come and get 'em, they was hauling 'em up there for trial. Ed Chambers got on the phone and he called the sheriff's office and called the State Police in McDowell and told them that he was afraid for them to come up there afraid he would kill 'em. They told him no the State Police told him and the Sheriff's office told him to come on and they'd be no trouble and they'd be right there to take care of all the trouble and not be afraid to come on up there. Uncle Reece Chambers said "boys you can go if you want to, but they'll kill ya if they catch up there, I'm going to stay here at home, they want me they'll come and get me", so he didn't go. So just as quick as they got there Sid wanted to take old Sid to leave he went into the Sheriff's office told Sid to put his gun down give them the guns and they'd give it to him when he come back, as quick as they stepped up on the steps Lively was hid over there behind the bush they was two or three more and they shot Sid and Ed Chambers down and theirs wives had umbrellas with 'em, it was rainin', and they beat them men over the head I'd say if they had a gun they would have killed 'em. They beat them men over the head with their umbrella's ere when they was trying to drag 'em around over there you see, but they never did come and get Uncle Reece Chambers, but they killed both of 'em and Ed Chambers wasn't in town the day that killing took place. They killed an innocent man, Ed Chambers was out of town, I do know that when that took place.

B: Where was he? Do you know?

BH: Na, I don't know where he was, he might have went to Williamson or he might have been gone, I don't know where he was at. Could have been out a huntin', I don't know where he was at, but he wudn't (wasn't) in town the day of that shooting they killed an innocent man, but they thought that because he was a Deputy Sheriff on to Sid "Deputy Police" because he was a Deputy Police they thought he was into that killin', but he was not into that killin'. Now they accused Sid Hatfield of killing Nancy Hatfield, Sid Hatfield didn't kill Nancy Hatfield, they was another man that shot him, he was hid and a freight train was passing Nancy Hatfield was sittin' at the Urias Hotel, he shot at him and shot him and Ryan sent the gun home. I can't tell you who it was, I can't prove it I'm afraid to I know who it was but...

B: Well, we've heard that it was Fred Burgraff.

BH: Huh...

B: We've heard that it was Fred Burgraff.

BH: Isaac Brewer.

B: Isaac Brewer.

BH: Don't you put that in there that I said it was Isaac Brewer now.

B: Okay.

BH: I'll tell you how I know. His boy they used to be an old barn out there at where they kept horses, he shot that man and took his gun and run his rifle over there and give it to his boy, this boy boarded the river out there at Matewan and went up to a wooden bridge across the bridge. Isaac Brewer lived up at Blackberry City this boy took the gun on that horse and took the gun home and Isaac Brewer went over and helped pick him up. Now they accused Tout Chamber or Sid Hatfield one of shootin' him. Sid said I wouldn't, if I'd wanted, Sid was just like that to. Sid told me he said if I would have wanted to kill Nancy Hatfield I would have just walked up there and told him that I was goin' to kill him, I wouldn't hide to shoot nobody, Sid wouldn't have done that they either were dead Tout Chambers, Tout did it. That man he says a word, but I'm telling you what I think I got it straight. Isaac Brewer was the man that killed him, Nancy was a cousin of mine. Daddy went to him and told him said you better pick your business up and sell out and get of here he said, your mixed up in this and they'll shoot ya, that's Uncle Wallace it's my dad's sister boy I'm not afraid of nobody, I ain't harm nobody and if they come here and shoot me and I'll shoot one or two of them, they shoot me whatever shoots me and daddy said they'll hide and shoot ya and you'll never know nothing about it somebody will hide and shoot ya and that's exactly what happened. Daddy actually didn't want him killed, Nancy didn't do nothing, all Nancy done was to run that Hotel and he feed those fellers and took care of 'em and got big money out of it. That's they reason they done that, they wanted him killed.

B: You say you knew Sid Hatfield what did he say when they ask him if he killed Tess...(Testerman)

BH: Sid Hatfield was one of the best men I ever seen, I worked with Sid Hatfield. Why the first job I ever got in my life, my brother, they call it the drum, one side over here open holler was like this....Sid worked on this side and my brother Valentine worked on that side and I drove a team...they runned these things to let the coal off the hill. What they do...the car would come out of the bank and they had a little thing they run down in a hole and this car would run up on it and they let that thing run down the hill and empty this car and bring it the loader to pull the empty one down the hill, now that's what they done Sid done it. Sid Hatfield worked there at Allburn for and also when the War was going on my brother went to Gilbert. We guarded the temple over there then Sid Hatfield and Boyd Hatfield and men, they was six of us. One of us would work one night and stay out there 'til two o'clock just keeping anybody from you know they was afraid they might burn the temple or something other and the company just hired us to stay there to watch we'd just see if nothing didn't go wrong and Sid was one, why I know Sid Hatfield used to my brothers used to loaf with him, Sid was one of the nicest man you ever saw he just one time up there like a young boy would be and they come and told Sid said they's a man come here to kill ya, during that Baldwin. Blankenship said he come here to kill ya. Sid said you reckon he did he said yes he said he was going to kill ya got a gun said he was going to kill ya. Sid said and see what he's going to do about it and he would set at the Urias Hotel in chairs like that right there Sid walked on and sit right down beside of him slapped on the knee like that he said I understood you's come here to kill me. He jumped up and started for his gun Sid took him out there and I walked to the icehouse used to be right there used to an icehouse there in Matewan that they kept ice down there on it and run a barber shop and the building was flat, you could walk out on that building. I run out on that building when I heard Sid say he was going over there, I might have got shot, but you know how boys, I walked out there to see what was going to happen and now Sid said I'll just go see the gentlemen and see what he came up there for. Sid hit him there he had a ring on and he cut a piece of skin down there hung down there about like your thumb, that feller just reach up and he put the handcuffs, he had to put the handcuffs on him brought him over there and got over there where Calvin Hestler was over there at the law where the law was he said I'll tell you what you do he said you take them handcuffs off of me and I'll whoop you, Sid said take them off, take 'em off if you can whip me I'll get up and laugh, shake hands with you. They said no, no, they got him arrested now take him over there and put him in jail and I went over and watched them lock him up and he took that hand-cuffs off of him he just reach up there and got that piece of skin hanging down and jerked it off and the blood just poured. He didn't want to in that jail and Sid took his foot and kicked him in that jail. Sid Hatfield wudn't (wasn't) afraid of nobody now that's one thing about, but he was the best hearted man I ever was I seen him one time whip his brother his brother come down there at the Allburn drunk and carrying on and he told said Bill go home, Bill said he would go home when he wanted to. Sid said you're going now, Sid took him out there and slapped him and gave him a kick and sent him home. Sid was a nice man, Sid Hatfield was.

B: Did you ever know the name of that fellow you were just telling me about, did they ever tell...

BH: Blankenship, from Peter Creek. They hired him to come there to so what they told Sid, they'd hired him to come there to kill Sid, I guess he did because he had a gun on him and when he went for his gun Sid could have shot him if he would have wanted to. Sid could also hit you so hard it was like a mule kickin', he hit that feller and that feller fell in the street and Sid was on top of him and had his handcuffs, before I knowed it Sid had his gun and had him hand cuffed, me standing lookin' right at it, I was standing looking right at it. I bet it was done as quick as I tellin' you, Sid had him, knocked him down there and hand cuffed him.

B: What did Sid do when people ask him about marrying Jessie so soon after Testerman's death, what would he say.

BH: How's that now.

B: Do you remember Sid saying anything to anybody when they ask him why he married Jessie so soon after Testerman's death.

BH: No, I tell ya, she was an awful pretty woman. Mrs. testerman was, now they tried to tell that Sid shot Cable Testerman to get his wife, wudn't (wasn't) a word of it so, Sid Hatfield after Cable died her and Sid got in the, like everybody they got in love and he married her, but as fer as that they was nobody ever said, there was nothing, I don't think. I never heard nobody or people a good citizen in Matewan, Ed Chambers was one honest man they ever was, there was nothing between them at all, until Calvin died he got killed and I don't know how long it was after Calvin Testerman got killed her and Sid married, but now that was all false they tried to start that, rumors started that there that he shot, but he didn't shot. I'm telling who shot him Lee Testerman or Albert Testerman or one of 'em.

B: Albert Phillips.

BH: Phillips, Albert Phillips or Lee Phillips one shot him maybe both of 'em, but while he shootin' 'em Sid killed both of 'em now they kind of tell that Sid shot Calvin Testerman to get his wife. Now you see that's the way it happened they just wanted they wanted to make it look funny on our side you see, but it wudn't (wasn't) a word of it so.

B: How about the Burgraff family we've heard some...

BH: I knowed the Burgraff's yes sir they was good I was in trial I knowed Bill Collins, he was in the trial, I knowed about all them fellers at the time. I knowed Bill Collins, he was into it, I knowed the Burgraff's I don't know how many of the Burgraff's they was, I was down there down there at the trial even though it come on sixteen he just helped. Here come a news boy around "Williamson Daily News", "Williamson Daily News" see what it's about said gave Sid Hatfield's picture in it said Sid looks like a bear. Some said right there stands Sid right there stood and grin "Sid grinned all the time", he just stood there listening to that boy holler out that you know, come and buy a paper Sid Hatfield's picture in it said why we know Sid Hatfield, son said why you don't know Sid said he looks like a bear there he stands right there he didn't believe it was Sid, Sid was standin' right there we was waitin' to catch the train home.

B: Cause we've heard a story that Albert Burgraff played the organ and that school was lettin' out when the Massacre happened and Albert took the kids up in the church and...

BH: I don't know.

B: In the church and played the organ

BH: I don't know. I knowed the Burgraff's and I used to know all of 'em and all them houses over there, but what they done I don't know, I wudn't (wasn't) going to the court and seeing the indictment and all of 'em I learnt who they was, but as fur as I knowed they lived there in Matewan, I wife used to live there in Matewan. Matewan is my hometown I stayed in Matewan all the time it was just 3 miles from Matewan to my house and we done all our tradin' there with Uncle Ed Chambers all of 'em and old Post Office used to be over there. Uncle Reece Chambers done most of the killin' of the Baldwin-Felt Massacre.

B: He did.

BH: Uncle Reece Chambers was right up in a building, right up over the Post Office window they told me I don't know now, I just heard it and every time he'd shoot one of 'em fell he had a rifle settin' there at the winder he was settin' at the Post Office down there he done that. Others claim, Burgraff's and so on claim they killed this and they killed that, but they told me that Uncle Reece Chambers done the most of the outside the two Lee Phillips and Albert Phillips and he done just about the rest of it. How many was they killed.

B: Ten, I believe I think there was seven...

BH: I don't remember how many they was killed...

B: I think they were seven Indians...

BH: But any how I know he was at, they said he done most if it, they some used to run down and hid down there, Uncle Ed Chambers used to live down there where the, you know where the Undertakers Office used to be there and some of 'em run down there and they hid some run out on Uncle Tom's hardware used to out here were the bank is now and some of 'em run there and his and they went out there on the river bank and killed one or two of 'em, I don't know, just what I heard about it, but I know Uncle Reece Chambers wudn't (wasn't) afraid of nobody.

B: I'm sorry go ahead.

BH: Uncle Reece was a good man he was the finest man you ever seen he didn't bother nobody, but he wouldn't take no foolishness off of nobody he was I don't know whether he was a, I believe he was Uncle Ebe's uncle, I think he was a brother to Thurman I don't believe he was a brother to Uncle Ebe, but they was Lee Chambers and Uncle Ebe Chambers they were brothers and Thurman and Lee used to a...Lee that was Hallie's daddy Chambers I used to know all of 'em, but they was I think was brothers children what I think. Aunt Dora Chambers, Lord the finest woman ever lived Uncle Ebe's wife I know I used to go up there and stay all night with Everett me and Everett was about the same age the one they call boots he used to come down home and stay. Reece was the old man the one that had wore a mustache, a little heavy set feller. The first man was shot, and that they all started shootin' and some run one way and some the other some of 'em didn't have a, now this man one these fellers got so mad and said he didn't have a gun. Ackleman and John Adams fell out down the street and killed one another that was way back before that ever happened they fell out and killed one another in the street of Matewan, but that was before this ever happened.

B: That was in 1913 or 1912 wasn't it, that the two men they got into the shooting match right there.

BH: Yell, drinking coffee or something another like that, I don't know they killed one another right there in the street in Matewan.

B: How about the Glen Alum robbery what do you remember about that.

BH: I just know I heard about it when I was, I just know what I heard about it. Charlie Ball was a deputy sheriff for Greenway Hatfield he stayed down there and took care of Greenway Hatfield's place Greenway was sheriff of Mingo County at that time and Charlie stayed down and took care of his place and when that happened they all got payroll Charlie said they all went up there and they took some blood hounds with them turned the blood hounds loose and they killed these blood hounds they got these Italian they was two Italians or three I believe they was three...

B: I don't know they were three or four.

BH: I believe there was three they shot these blood hounds and finally they killed two of these and that other one stayed there all night and the next morning he got up and crowed like a rooster, he let the seven in and when he started crowing they started shootin' and finally they killed him now that's all I know about that, but what I got from that was Charlie's Ball cause Charlie Ball was a good friend of ours and I visit him over to there and he come our place and we all fished together, hunted together and he just told me what he knowed about it, but lord they was twenty-five or thirty deputies and everything else and these Italians went up there and got up behind the cliff of rocks somewhere and the hill there and they shot and shot. Charlie Ball told me some of them fellers was across the hill on the other side of the mountain and these fellers on this side of the mountain claim they was shootin' at that boy that's what Charlie Ball told me and I know Charlie Ball told me the truth.

B: How about Greenway Hatfield we've heard that he run Mingo County when he was...

BH: Who?

B: We heard that Greenway Hatfield run Mingo County when he was...

BH: Greenway Hatfield was one of the you know he run twice he was elected first on the Democrat Greenway was and then he run I think he was sheriff three more terms on the Republican team him and my daddy was the greatest friends in the world. See, Hender D. Hatfield was Greenway's daddy and he knowed daddy all of his life and my daddy and mother both died in Huntington Hospital before Doctor Hatfield was a doctor. Daddy died with a bloody gravel what they call bloody gravel they cut something out of him about like a chicken gizzard and had full of gravel and that doctor teased him said Uncle Wallace you been eatin' gravels daddy said a many of when he'd be fightin' fires told me a lot of times and the fire get out they would go by and they would find where and ox had stepped in full of water and he drink it, he was so thirsty he's drink it and he thought maybe that would have caused it, but I don't think it would I just think you know you have that today I think people gets that 'er stuff today. So my mother she fell of a after we was married she fell off a little walk about half high and she went down to Cable Huntington Hospital and they put, she broke her hip and they put her hip in a cast and put a cast up here and she took smothering spells daddy I'd be laying I was a little boy before me and mommy was married she take a smother pill daddy would have to jump up and open the door and pull the winder down so she could breath and we thought Will McCoy, she raised Will McCoy, Will McCoy used to stay at the house and Will had been out there to see her and she was teasing she whupped Will one time her and Landand my older brother got to do something other and she whupped both of 'em. He was laughing about her whupping him teasing her and they come and told him that my mother was dead and he couldn't believe he said I just left there about ten o'clock and they come about eleven and told me that she was dead so they both died in Cable Huntington Hospital and that's why we was always good friends because Greenway Hatfield left daddy hardly anything we, if we wanted to fish we could fish anything we wanted to do Greenway Hatfield never bothered us.

B: How about uh...what about Testerman' first wife did you ever know Testerman's first wife.

BH: I never knowed he was married until I knowed I knowed his last wife I bought a many coke cola, ice cream and I would go in there you know I'd buy my ice cream and coke cola and stuff. And buy little things and I never knew I didn't know his first wife.

B: How about the mayor's office we've heard that Testerman ran, you know he ran the town business out of his store, after that where was the mayor's office in town did they have one.

BH: Honey, I don't know, they used to have over the Lock-up that's where the mayor's office was over there beside the Lock-up around at the back of the railroad, but finally they built out here what they did for years they kept it out the back of the railroad now the time they put that in I went over to the jailhouse I'd been in that jailhouse different of times went over there to talk to people in jail and it was all over the back of the railroad back over here on the right. Finally they moved it, I don't know what year they moved it in the bank and all used to be over there you know the bank used to be there and my daddy help start that bank, Uncle Ebe Chambers and them that was. I started puttin' money in the bank at Matewan when I was sixteen years old they was only one man older than I am that put money in the bank and that's Frankie Lloyd me and Dan Chambers and Frankie Lloyd was the three oldest Dan was the first one, next oldest customer, Frank's next them I'm next of the Matewan Bank. I started banking at that bank when I was sixteen years old and I never have I'd always done business at that bank, that was one of the nicest banks I knowed Edgar, Edgar was the president of the bank, cashier of the bank, Dan Chambers, Bern Chambers knowed all of 'em Everett Chambers, Leonard Chambers, Carlos Creek, Purlos Creek I knowed all them people there in Matewan they was Uncle Ebe's kin people. Pearl was Uncle Ebe's girl he had a girl named Lena she married a druggist, I believe he was a druggist, I think Lena is still living today, I reckon their all dead I reckon Berns and Lena only two a living I don't know.

B: How about the Western Union office, do you remember...

BH: Western Union was always was in the deep hole it was all together in the deep hole where I told you that snow was. That's were you went to get your bills for freight and that's all there, because I went there and sent money, wired money and that's where it was at the time it was just Baldwin-Felt I don't know if they changed it later to the bank or some place I don't know.

B: When did they get uh...electricity down town in Matewan, when did you all get electricity.

BH: I don't know how long they did I can't tell you that I know when me and mommy was married we didn't have no lights and we had to tell you the truth we had it tough they put the lights in and we paid a dollar a month and we had to put the money back to have the dollar now that's scarce money was me and her got married we had it tough, the strike was on all that stuff went on Baldwin-Felt killin' and I had a good job, but because I belonged to the union they pardoned me and I couldn't get a job back and finally I did get a job back and I worked thirty-two years in the mines in or out of the mines.

B: Did you ever hear Mother Jones when she came to speak?

BH: Oh, lord yes I've seed Mother Jones.

B: Would you tell me about her?

BH: She made so much noise and talk so much and I swear she didn't care she would just open her mouth and make a "oh" just the same as a man just walk right up and put her hand on a machine gun they said wouldn't afraid of nothing son she wudn't (wasn't) afraid to tell none of 'em she would just walk right up in the crowd and tell them her and Bill Blizzard and all them why she wudn't (wasn't) I've seed Mother Jones, but lord she would just get out and make a speech and say what she wanted to or with one "oh" nobody would bothered her she wouldn't have cared. John L. Lewis was the same way, Bill Blizzard said one time if they was less Hatfield's and more corn fields this country would be better off, he didn't let you speak. I remember making that speech there in Matewan one time and he said that for a joke a lot of you know talk about Sid Hatfield and all of us there was so many Hatfield's he said I'll tell ya if this country had more corn fields, less Hatfield's we'd be better off I remember that statement he made.

B: And that was Bill Blizzard you say.

BH: Bill Blizzard made that statement.

B: What do you remember about him?

BH: Well, he was just a good spokesman all I know I went around visit around and heard him make speeches he was an awful good spokesman and as fur as what kind of man he was I didn't know.

B: I had one lady tell me that Mother Jones chewed tobacco, did you ever see her chewing?

BH: I don't remember about that.

B: Okay.

BH: I guess she did she done it she wouldn't have been afraid to, to do anything.

B: What do you remember about Charlie Kiser, I know he was a local union...

BH: I remember Charlie the first time I ever seed Charlie Kiser, went up to town they had a dance and him and Elbert my brother older than I was they wouldn't let me go in that dance I wanted to go in I went up to the trailer and I stayed outside the trailer he wouldn't let me, it was a tent Charlie Kiser and Elbert and all the others I wudn't (wasn't) old enough to get in you had to be a certain age to get in they all went in there dancing I kind of thought hard of all of 'em because they wouldn't let me in, but they had a big time in there at a dance that's the first time I'd seed Charlie Kiser then I knowed Charlie Kiser all of my life from then on up I guess I was about twelve years old when I got to know Charlie Kiser. I knowed him all my life, knowed where he lived at lived up there at above Junior up there at the, my brother used to live up there.

B: Meador!

BH: What they call that place up there where Allen lived, it's just where you get to Beech Creek mountain up there.

B: Was it Meador?

BH: Meador, Meador, Meador that's exactly I think some of Charlie Kiser's people still lives at Meador. Meador that's where Charlie lives at Meador, my brother lived over there at Meador and I used to visit him and Charlie Kiser used to come over there and Allen, my brother and Charlie would go huntin', squirrel huntin', I knowed Charlie Kiser real well.

B: Did you all ever hear the IWW when you were startin' to get the union together.

BH: How's that.

B: Did you all ever hear the IWW.

BH: No.

B: The walbles, they never came through this area. Had you heard about 'em though when you were a young man?

BH: Well, I used to know all them Sam Starr all them Starr boys all of 'em when that union when that was going on and they used to make their tents my daddy reason why I couldn't get a job daddy was a friend to all them union men and he let those fellers down at Gates and New Howard come on across the river and put up trailers or tents over there and live on his land didn't charge them anything. The company fell out with him because thought he was taking sides daddy wudn't (wasn't) takin' no sides he just didn't want to see them men without no place to live throwed 'em out of the houses they had no place to go so daddy let 'em put up tents on his place down there that's the reason why they held that against me because they claim we was a friend to the union that's the reason why I like to never got a job. I tell ya why I told a man to get a job Bob McCampbell was superintendent there at New Howard and I lived me and mommy was married and we had expecting a baby at about that time and I kept trying to get a job, get a job every evening he'd come to the river and fish he was an awful fine man Bob Campbell was I said Bob "Mr. Campbell I said you ever going to give me job and he said Basil I'd like to give you a job I just don't know anybody I rather give a job as you, but he said I ain't got nothing fittin' to give you to work at I said Mr. Campbell I'd clean toilets I said I'd do anything I said I tell you what if you don't give me a job I tell you what I'm going to have to do I said I'm going to have to take my wife and give her to her mother cause I can't take care of her and he laughed he said what I said I got to take my wife back and give her to her mother he said why she won't have her I said well she'll have to take her because I'm going to let her starve to death, so he said I tell you what you do you come out a Monday morning well that was on Friday, I never forget it I was the happiest man in the world so Mr. Shay he owned the mine, Mr. Howard Shay old man Shay old man Shay said come here I want to tell you what this man told me. Well, old man Shay said I think he's a gentlemen he said I didn't blame if I couldn't have kept her and kept her something to eat, well I would have give her back to her mother to he said I tell you, he was honest about it, he was doing that for a joke so I worked that one job he give me I worked five years down there around the temple down there I was inside the house I could look across the river and see my house and I worked there five years and I worked seven years as a repairman for that company, I worked five years as a shop foreman for Crystal Block Coal Company I worked eight years. I worked three years as a car man and five years as a foreman Bank of Laurel I was superintendent. He come there after I was down there.

B: What do you know about the coal mining wars, about Blair Mountain the Battle of Blair Mountain and all that.

BH: I was superintendent, I run three different mines I started here in the store business I left Crystal-Block when I left Crystal-BLock I come from here and put up a store I went into coal business I went over to the Pigeon Creek at the old airport back of the airport put in a mines me and Howard Atkins put in a mines there and sold coal to Puritan Coal Company I mined all I could mine there and I come over to Sprigg old Sprigg mine and I mined out old Sprigg mine as much coal I could get there and Mr. Telly moved me up to Rocky Hollow right where the mines they call it Rocky Hollow now right in that hollow where Spouse Creek what they call Rocky Holler I put a mine in there and mined there mined coal I got four-dollars and a quarter per ton for coal and paid my men twenty-five dollars a day they kept their union dues paid and their welfare paid and cleared a hundred dollars a day besides my wages and the children I didn't want to get rich I just wanted to make a living. I didn't go into the coal business to get rich I just wanted to make a living if I was doing good I paid myself twenty-five dollars a day and we had tree trucks boys drove the trucks and we took out so much a ton for hauling the coal and so forth and I mined coal and made money selling coal and we hand loaded by hand had to load all of our coal by hand loadin' and haul it with battery motors.

B: What years was this?

BH: How's that.

B: What years was this? You don't remember.

BH: You got me, my friend was here he's say I can't think no I'm gettin' old. We come over here and "wait a minute".

B: So, you started in business in 1937.

BH: Yell, Belfry Grocery then my brother M.D. Hatfield. I bought M.D. Hatfield out he went to Gilbert and put up a store I run the store for about ten years I sold a car load of feed every month I ordered a car load of feed, the more business I can take care all the people told me when I worked with over at Gates New Howard Mr. Hatfield he put if you put on a truck your a good union man, you stood with us and we'll stand by you we'll give you all of our business if you do that and I said I would do it, so I had more business than I could take care I had my with all the children I had girls and boys here I had a big family I put 'em in there helpin' me, help me deliver and help do that and we had a big business, finally I went about count twelve years from there.

B: 1949.

BH: Yell, I was in the '30's I went into coal business and I was in the coal business for about fifteen years I guess.

B: How about uh...state policeman called Brockus, did you ever hear anything about...

BH: I knowed of him, they used to turn in and give us a hard time haulin' coal they would catch us, fine us for overweight, one thing or another I remember Brockus of being a state police I tell ya the one I remember the most "wait a minute let me see what his name was ...he was a good state police he used to be in a station there in Matewan around when my brother was sheriff. I can't think of the name used to be around in Matewan all the time he was a great friend to everybody I can't think of his name to save my life.

B: You say your brother was Chief of Police in Matewan.

BH: Valentine Hatfield, I had two brothers that were Chief of Police, Valentine Hatfield was Chief of Police in Matewan, Allen Hatfield took it after left and Ernest Hatfield my nephew you know Ernest don't you, Ernest is my nephew.

B: Okay.

BH: After Valentine quit Ernest took it over and Ernest stayed there I don't know how many years we got him to fill deputy and they put him in deputy sheriff.

B: They uh...the other guy...

BH: Allen shot my brother shot one of the McCoy boys arrested him and he took the other officers pistol and was aimed to shoot him coming up and aimed to shoot Allen and Allen shot him. I don't remember what that McCoy boys name was.

B: That happened in the '40's didn't it that...

BH: Yell, I believe it did about that time. You can look that up and correct that whatever it is I don't know what year it was, but I remember Allen going to the penitentiary and it was I don't blame Allen for do it because that McCoy was drunk and carrying on and he took this man's pistol I forget that man's name from old McCoy I used to work with him. He took his pistol and Allen said he was up and aimed it at him and as he raised up aiming at Allen, Allen shot to keep him from shootin' him.

B: The other fellow from WVU is interviewed people and he's interviewed your nephew Ernest and ask Ernest he said he heard that uh...the police chiefs in Matewan used to have to be able to whip everybody in the county. Did you ever, did they have to be that tough to be chief of police?

BH: No, I don't know about that they didn't have to be, but I reckon that just tried to get the best man they could. I'll tell you they had some people there in Matewan Allen Hensley for one 'em tried to take the town and they would get drunk and got out of a chief police there for awhile they didn't have one. After Sid died they was nobody much wanted it so they talk my brother in notion of takin' it and my brother was a man that wouldn't take no foolishness and he really didn't want it, but they begged him to take it and Allen Hensely was bad to fight every time he'd get into a fight with somebody every time he'd get drunk so he come down there just to bother the police and cuttin' up and carrying on and finally he told him said Allen you either go home and quietin' down or I'll lock you up why he said you couldn't lock me up Valentine said that's what you think he made another noise and Valentine knocked him down and put the handcuffs on him and took him over and put him in jail and he was a good boy from then on and never had no more trouble with him, so Valentine come to mall down there and Valentine got tired of it and he turned it over to Allen and after Allen quit my brother Allen had that trouble why Ernest taken it I reckon Ernest was the next man to take it maybe somebody might have took it after Allen I don't know, but Allen anyhow Ernest kept it for years there. Ernest made an awful good police. Ernest is a fine feller.

B: I want to ask you about some of the people that have lived in Matewan and if you would if you know anything about 'em there was a fellow in town that was an Italian named Rock that was supposedly a bootlegger.

BH: Nah, they accused Allen of that happened while Allen was there he got drunk some way he done something they went to arrest him and they was shootin' up stairs at him, but they accused Allen of shootin', but Allen didn't shoot him I found out that Allen didn't shoot him somebody else shot him they don't know there was three or four shootin' and he was killed out there I'll tell you where he was killed just through the round carson on the right they was a building there I believe there's a filling station there now and he lived up stairs one time I went a squirrel huntin' and I lived at the Ben of the River and I crossed the river from up the hill there at right at the end of the tail track below near Hatfield Bottom I got back acrossed over the hill of Fair Branch and who did I find but Rock. Rock had a double barrel shot gun and he had that thing loaded and both triggers pulled back on it I said Rock what are you doing with that gun cocked he said kill squirrel I said man you live to fall down and knock it off I said no, no be ready see a squirrel kill it I said boy I stood and watched and said which way are you going he said I'm goin' back this way I stood and watched him get out of sight and I took the other way I was afraid of 'em that gun cocked and it loaded and both triggers pulled back on it.

B: A lady I interviewed said he used to make wine like they made in the old country, do you know of him making any wine?

BH: He used to make moonshine.

B: Made moonshine.

BH: Back in the uh... I guess that was everybody made moonshine Lord they was moonshine all over the place down there at Greenway Hatfield's used to make moonshine there in the basement we used to make at the Ben of the River used to haul it from Blackberry, Peter Creek everybody used to make moonshine. I took elderberries gathered elderberries and made elderberry wine out of it made moonshine when I lived at the Ben of the River that was in about twenty-four everybody was in the moonshine business that's all they was moonshine was everywhere anywhere you went you could get moonshine.

B: How about Aunt Carrie did you ever hear of Aunt Carrie having any...

BH: Why, yell yes she was the one that run it out of the back and Mag Daniels you ever hear of Mag Daniels I'd knowed her way well.

B: How did you spell her name, do you know?

BH: Daniels, Maggie Daniels she kept she didn't care what they did one time first time I ever saw her I run this temple down there it was two "hunkies" come down there my brother sold whiskey and they come there and they was a little ole boat there about ten feet long and I was didn't have nothing to do I was waitin' on 'em to bring some coal I said to myself if them fellers gets in that boat they'll get drowned that boat ain't big enough to carry both of 'em son they got in that boat and turned loose the river was up right down that river they come one of 'em turned around and swung out on the Kentucky side he just swung headed hisself down the river just floated down the other side then he went right down that river a over coat on and holler he'd go under that water he'd holler under that water like a bullfrog and I went to hollering for my brother as hard as I could and finally I got my brother to answer I told him to run down there and jump in the boat they was a man a drowning and time he'd went by me they followed him down there and they got him by the hair of the head him and Charlie Scott pulled him out he got on the bank got him kinda straighten up so he could talk or reach back to his pocket book and he got his pocket book out and said here fifty-dollars give you Mr. Hatfield you saved my life I said no, no Joe no, no I didn't know who he was no Joe, no I don't want your money I won't take your money I said I don't want your money yell, yell, yell, he said I want you to have it he said if it hadn't been for you I wouldn't have been here I said I know that but I don't want your money Charlie Scott said give it to me I'll take it he just grabbed that money and put it his pocket I said Charlie give that man back that money be shamed of yourself I wouldn't take that man's money for nothing I just soon steal he na, he was drowning on some liquor I'm goin' to keep it Mag Daniels come down and brought Uncle Tom Chafins run a dray-wagon and loaded that man in that there wagon and he had a pint of whiskey in his pocket and never been uncorked they got that out and they drunk that whiskey cause they wudn't (wasn't) nothing wrong with the whiskey, but you know I just stopped there, they drunk that whiskey and loaded that man back in there and took him back up to uh...

B: What do you remember about Mag Daniels though?

BH: Most I remember about it I up there at town one time me and Andy Brewer New Howard had a big pair of norman horses weighed about 14 or 15 hundred pound apiece and one of 'em got down with the box horses took the box.

B: What's that?

BH: Well, it's a disease they just lay right down and they turn their head right back this away and they'll row and their sicken I don't know it just something on the inside of 'em they call it box and he brought that big fine horse over here pretty as a picture it was so sad I think it would have been. That horse would lay down and get up then lay down and he'd get up oh, big crowd gathered around out there at Uncle Tom's hardware and she walked out there she said uh...wait a minute and I'll tell you what she said she said won't somebody do something with that horse lay there and let that horse die. Jarvey Harris was superintendent he said we've done everything in the world we know what to do for him we can't she said I can tell you what to do for that horse and he'll get up and go home she said well what is it go out there and buy you a pound of lard and get a chew of home made tobacco stick up his tail and said he would get up and walk off and I swear they done that that horse got up from there they hooked him in the back of the wagon and took a load out that's how I remember that's what she told him we tried that it works to anytime a horse takes a belly ache or something that's what they do for him.

B: I've heard her name, but I didn't know what she did. Did she run a house in town or did she...

BH: She run a boardin' house, she kept boarders. She would keep anybody or anything in the place she run a boardin' house out there at the back of the deep hole somewhere she lived out back there.

B: What do you remember about Aunt Carrie?

BH: I don't remember that much about her I just know she was there in town I knowed Landon Hatfield lord he used to live across that hill around the barber at Buskirk, he used to they used to be a blue goose where they killed these boys you know over there they call it the blue goose Landon Hatfield sold whiskey there...over there at Buskirk. Knowed Sally McCoy lord I knowed Sally McCoy, Sally used to work for Bob Buskirk all that there and the liquor business. Hewey Combs I knowed Hewey Combs, he was the organizer for the coal mines Hewey Combs was.

B: Did you ever go in the Blue Goose?

BH: What!

B: Did you ever go in the Blue Goose?

BH: No, no.

B: Were you to little or were you to young?

BH: They had it right there and they kept a ferry the only way you could get across the river was by boat and two men got drowned and my brother found one of 'em down there in the Island. I was going to school and they hollered for me to come down and help pull him out and they found the other one down there at Bob Jenkins found him down there at he golf course both of 'em they went across the river and the boat turned over with 'em some way and they drowned there. Landon Hatfield kept runnin' up there they had a rope you pull yourself back and forth across when you wanted to cross there and Landon stayed over here and run that Landon Hatfield did and run that Blue Goose now that ole Blue Goose was there when they killed those boys we always knowed it by the Blue Goose it was right you know where the building that big building now right out where they got right out at the end right on the bank where that man's house is there it stood right there on that little corner the great old big building there they call it the Blue Goose.

B: What do you remember about Frank Allara?

BH: I knowed Frank Allara old man Massey raised him Mrs. Massey they run a big sawmill her daddy worked for him the Allburn. Allburn is takin' the lumber from the saw cut off saw and squarin' the timber her daddy worked for 'em for years. They had a sawmill up the Ferrell Branch down there and I went to school over there they had a school right up here where the high school is on the side of the hill Mabel Alley call it the school there. I went to school there, we'd go down to the Ferrell Branch to get water Mrs. Massey had a little store there she run all the Logan crew traded there, they had parrot on the pole that parrot said "Oh, Mrs. Massey, Mrs. Massey Tom wants in the store, Tom wants in the store" she'd holler 'til she come didn't make no difference who come she'd holler, but she knowed Tom Akers was a boy I went to school with and Tom learnt that thing to cuss oh, she got so mad at Tom, she said Tom she was a religious woman Mrs. Massey was a fine woman I've helped her raise Frank she was Frank's aunt I believe was she Frank's aunt or mother mommy, Mrs. Massey was she Frank's mother or did she just raise Frank. Well I don't know she raised the girl and Jack and Frank and Elizabeth she married Elizabeth married somebody there Matewan that run a fillin' station. She raised all three of them, had a big spring up there up above her house and we'd go there and get water and we'd stop and Tom Aker's daddy for Massey and he'd get a quarters worth of candy and he would get a bag that big show her that ole sugar candy and go back and more candy for a quarter to treat the whole school he'd bring it up there and everyone 'em said he took candy to school.

B: What kind of games did you all play when you all were little when you were in school.

BH: Swung on grapevines, we caught rabbits we played baseball, droppin' the handkerchief and all that stuff you know I lost my handkerchief and filled it full of water and throw it away and all stuff like that that was what we played.

B: Did you all ever play Hiram Phillips told the other fellow that was down here about play sandball (sandbar) or baseball. Did you ever play baseball...

BH: Oh, yell baseball we used to play what we call round town you'd hit with it softball knock the ball and if you could hit 'em before they got to the base with it why you won. Now they catch you know we call it round town and we played base you know have a dunt (?). Ever play base and have a dunt?...we played that's the most of our game base and softball.

B: Okay.

BH: And we'd go cut us a grapevine back there in that hill and swing out Mabel whup me and Junior both one her brother lord she whipped me for nothing, but I couldn't help it he lied he said that boy fell out there and broke his arm that he got out there and just let loose and fell and broke his broke both arms I believe right in here he went down to the house and told that Junior pushed him boy that was Mabel's brother she whipped him he was a lawyer, Junior Alley was a lawyer...Mose Alley's boy she whipped him he said Bass pushed him I pushed him too and I wudn't (wasn't) why I was fur away from him in and out that room I didn't touch him she whip me too boy that hurt me I didn't if I'd pushed him I wouldn't have cared and I told her I said now Junior and 'em pushed him me and Junior got a whuppin' for nothing, but because that he got hurt and said he had no business back there no how just, so she whipped us boy she whipped us to Junior had on a little pair of these we used to wear these little blouse pants they buckle around the knee you know and she whupped him around the knees made whips around his legs I had a pair of overalls, but she really whipped us boy I'm tellin' you whipped the very hide off us neither one us deserve a whippin' because he just sprung out there we told him not to swing out there he was littler than we was we told not to swing out there you'll fall off he said na, I'm goin' swing I can swing so he got out there and just let loose.

B: What do you remember about the Flu epidemic of that followed right after World War I?

BH: I just remember it come around and we had lost a lot of neighbors one thing or another it was bad nearly everybody had it and that's about all I remember. Do you remember anybody died of that Flu mommy? Several I don't know just what year it was, but I know that the Flu epidemic come around during that time.

B: Did you all get it in your family?

BH: Yell, we all had it but we tea and drunk one thing to try to keep it away.

B: What were some of the stores that and things that were in Matewan when you were young say about 1915? What do you remember that was downtown what they call downtown now?

BH: I remember in 1915 they put was only one tunnel down in the Ben of the River just one tunnel there and in 1915 they put that tunnel through there and I remember Mont Woods married my cousin he boarded down at Uncle Alvin Hatfield's down my daddy's brother and they got in love and he married Emmy Woods they married Mont Woods married Emmett Hatfield married her and that's about all I remember during that time I was...I remember Grandpa Hatfield workin' there at that bridge they one of these here I was just a boy I feed 'em milk and butter me and my daddy did we raised cows and had a lot of camps over there and a lot of people, colored people lived over there and boy they liked buttermilk and stuff like that watermelon, raspberries and corn me and daddy come up there a peddling and Grandpa had one of these little forgers that you turned by hand and he'd heat ribbets and Mont Woods stood up on that trussel (trestle) on that high trussel and he take that hundred tongues (?) heat them red hot and throw 'em and he'd catch 'em in a powder can and they put that together with it ribbets and throwed as fur he throwed 'em a hundred foot Grandpa Hatfield was a blacksmith there he I watched 'em do that and they brought that way done that tunnel now where those people lives out there below the railroad. They had a mule there and they had a big ole railroad car and they would go in there and load that there thing down with rock and they would bring it out there that mule would bring it out there bridges fort and go out and go up side of the river and they meet a big Phillips side of that river and caught that and bought 'em up there and they just when they got out there all they had to do just hit a thing and that car would turn up that away and dump stuff out they would go right back and get another load that's the way they dug that through there by mules I watched that mule come out there and that mule come out of there runnin' and when she went over to West Virginia side they just jerk a clevus (?) and she'd step out to side and they run on down there and dump that and they would take her right back and take that carriage right back in there.

B: Where was the theater before Frank Allara's theater we've heard that there was another theater in town and we don't know where it was, do you remember?

BH: I don't know the first time I knew them is where I told you I don't know where they before that or not Massey come 'er and put a sawmill. He had two sawmills he had one down in Parsley he had that big sawmill in Ferrell Branch there and he run it for I don't know how many years my wife's daddy worked for him, Sal Akers work for him, Hawk Dean worked for him you ever know Dick Dean or Hawk Dean. Hawk Dean used to drive they had a mule they hauled all the lumber to Matewan and shipped it, Sal used to go down the road every night they would haul lumber at eleven o'clock in the night. Sals had four mules to a wagon and he had a rope tied to his freight and at ten or eleven o'clock he'd go down the road singin' Amazing Grace or How Firm the Foundation or I've Solider off the Coast. He was one of the best singers ever was you could hear him sing a half mile we'd say listen at Sals goin' down singin' he'd be by hisself and there them mules take 'em down take a load of lumber it would be after night take it up there.

B: Did you all ever go to the movie shows in the...

BH: How's that.

B: Did you all ever go to the movie shows when you were young?

BH: No, wudn't (wasn't) no such thing as a movie show that day and time I don't reckon...

B: Okay.

BH: The first time I ever went to anything in my life they told us Ed Chambers so tested Ted shoes star brand shoes and that man Tess or Ted or whatever his name was sold them shoes he had a boy and a girl the girl was about your size and the boy was big fleshy boy they told us at home if you fellers help us hole all the corn out we'll take you up at the show at the Matewan and they had that show around Uncle Tom's hardware they let Tess and Ted get up on that flat up over on the porch that's the first ice cream I ever saw in my life they had they come in and I was at my sisters I said lord look what they want to do with that butter she said you little gulp you that's not butter that's ice cream I said I couldn't wait 'til I got some of it and they had I bet you twenty-five tubs of lemonade in wash tubs and ice in it and they had watermelons all everything was free didn't cost you a thing and I got a picture in there now our family picture they got they took some badges in a little box about that big and just slung 'em this away and that a way lord I run over there and pickin' up 'em badges and I put my pocket fulls and they got them stickers on the side they would stick me to death I jumped and I got some of 'em on my suit when they had my picture made when I was a boy and I was about ten or twelve years old and they put that show out there at Tess and Ted's lived with 'em. He sold shoe Uncle Ed's size he sold them star brand shoes that's what we wore all the time and I remember that Tess and Ted puttin' on that show they was his girls that man's they come 'er and put that show on free and they had I thought where they danced they put I thought it was meal they put on the floor to make the floor slick and they would dance and put on a show there it was fun. We took a wagon and every one of us went except I don't know my dad and mother I don't believe mother went, but all of 'em they was I guess they was about ten or twelve of us we all went in a wagon up there took the mules and went up there to see that to get that ice cream and.

B: So about how old were you before you ever had ice cream?

BH: I was big enough to carry water I'd say I was about seven years or eight years old. No, I wudn't (wasn't) big enough to hole corn I was just carrying water cause Valentine said told daddy I was lazy and I didn't do good wudn't (wasn't) workin' much and he wouldn't goin' to let me go and I said daddy said why sure you ain't goin' to keep him from goin' I remember that I couldn't have been over eight years old I'd say I was about eight years old. I had a niece me and her was three months different me and her both went me nor her neither that was the first time we ever eat ice cream I didn't know what it was I didn't know. We never much of made it 'til then because after that we got to makin' it, but I never did eat no ice cream I didn't know what in the world it was I thought it was butter.

B: Howard Radford said they used to bring ice cream in from Williamson for the fourth of July, do you remember them bringing ice cream in on the train?

BH: Oh, they used to bring it in I used to order it we'd go to the we'd go get five gallon you would have to be there at a certain time to get it you know we'd go get gallons, finally we got ice cream maker and made our own, but we just to go on the fourth of July was the only time you could get I reckon and we'd go get it by the gallons or two gallons strawberry or what you have an order in for it in order to get and take it home and eat it you know you could get it come in a big long buckets you know of lids on it packed with ice.

B: There some other stories that we've heard that I'd like to double check since you're telling me that the truth is if you know, we had somebody tell us that Sid was an illegitimate child that he was raised by Hatfield but he was not a Hatfield, did you ever hear of anything about that?

BH: He was a Hatfield. I've heard that, but I believe that I don't know I know his daddy name was Jerry or not but they lived over here in Blackberry I've got a book in there that tells you exactly who his daddy was I've got a Hatfield and McCoy and all of old timers back and all of 'em Sid daddy's name and his mother's name and all that stuff in there.

B: Like I said I was trying to double check the stories.

BH: People just get imagine in that kind of stuff you know then they claim I don't know, but after all that stuff got out I heard all that stuff if I ain't mistaken Jerry maybe his dad Jerry or Jeremiah was his daddy and I got his mothers name in there I didn't know all them Hatfield's.

B: Did they tell you stories about the Civil War when you were a little boy?

BH: How's that?

B: Did they ever tell you stories about what went on in the Civil War in this area when you were a little boy?

BH: Oh, used to tell me stories grandpa used to tell me this you know what they call a rebel a yankee war way back hundred years ago grandpa said they come in and killed his cow now you think about that shot his cow down killed her and cut up and built a fire and cooked some of it and eat it and took the rest with 'em took the last dress that grandma had and the last pair of pants he had and they put up a I had that over there they had a weed an old time weed all those logs made out of that thing I couldn't carry the logs much as a way because they set up there at weave and web them clothes made her some clothes and him some jeans to wear they took the last thing they had took the last a meal barrel and tore it up and grandma had to go and get him some corn I don't know how you used to what they call that corn grid some corn before they could have something to eat and they had to spend that wax and make them clothes. Grandpa said he went up to narrows branch I could show you if I was up there and grandpa said he seen them coming he broke to run he went up on the part of the cemetery grandpa said he run around this way and he said run right around there he's coming around that flat there you'll get him right 'ere he's coming right to ya, grandpa said he turned and run the other way and he said they wudn't (wasn't) nobody up 'ere he come to find out that man was standin' down there in the bottom and just a hollerin' at him watching him run and grandpa said he run cause he just give out and he just fell over in the sink hole he said, well they'll just have to come and get me I can't run no further and come to find out they wudn't (wasn't) a soul up 'ere he said a squirrel would jump in a tree and he would run the other way he said he was scared to death you know they captured him and take you and make you fight in that war they was two sides. Uncle Abe Phillips told me one time that they come to his house and said to his mother where's Abe at oh, they come the other day and got him now I said your lying to us he's laying right here he's right here in this house somewhere right around here somewhere said he's right here looking at his and listening to us she said no they come and got him the other day and Uncle Abe said they had some bees settin' on a log like right here and he was laying over behind that log and said that man set down on that log he said his heart he put his hand over his heart said it seemed like his heart was goin' bla, bla, bla he said he could hear his heart beat and he said I was scared to death, but he never did see me I was laying behind that log and he was he said he heard 'em he was up stairs and he run and come down climb down the post and run and got behind that log. He said they robbed that and hem bees there and took what honey they had there and him laying behind that log they never did get him, he said you talk about lord they had a time back there in that they would come and get just what you had and make you fight take what you had they just took it by force Rebel and Yankee War I think what they call a Republic and Democrat or something other like that I don't know what it was.

B: Was that both sides that would come and take peoples food or did...

BH: Either side come and get you they would force you to go and fight for 'em. Those that was able to fight, like young man of age eighteen, fifteen they wouldn't take no little boy, but a man of eighty or twenty-one or eighteen years old they would take him. They call that the Rebel and Yankee War I just heard 'em tell about those things lord I could just picture grandpa crop I just wondered how a man could just walk up there and kill a man's cow and eat it and take what he had to eat take the last bit of flour and didn't have no flour at that time just meal take the last drop of meal you had and take all the clothes you had how a man could let a feller do that they couldn't do that this day and time they'd kill ya, but that day and time they just done what they wanted to.

B: We've heard that the Baldwin-Felts agents and the State Police would also later on when people were having to live in the tent colonies that they would go in and dump their supplies like that to. They would take the union would bring supplies and the Police and the agents would dump in on the ground. Did you ever hear about 'em doing stuff like that?

BH: No, I don't think that happened over there. We all got checks and it was a relief when everybody got a check so much a month if I hadn't had a cow and some chickens we went hungry my family would have because we didn't I had raised a garden and I had a cow get plenty of milk and I had feed to feed her on I had raised corn to feed her on and we had potatoes and stuff we didn't go hungry, but we couldn't buy nothing you know for the children and nothing like that, but we didn't go hungry if it hadn't been for that we would have went hungry I couldn't get on that relief because I owned a home I had my own home and people that could get on it was people that didn't have no home and was throwed out of houses see it was awful hard for a feller like me and not workin' or nothing because I had you know you have to have money just the same as anybody else you don't have to something in that it's awful hard on us, but as fur as that I don't think they did around there, but what little they got to eat Mother Jones was made the relief check they had to go over Tuesday or Wednesday one place Sprigg, we'd go to Sprigg to get it others would go to Matewan and get their and different where ever local was why we go in and get our checks I finally got on they give a few I got to draw a few checks.

B: Were your alls union meetin' secret were they secret meetin' or did you all have like a hand shake or a code word so you could know you was a union man and who wasn't.

BH: No, we just meet up and had correspondence for one another and had meetings every week you know and all that have an understanding what was all about and everything and I think that's about all I can tell ya.

B: I thank you for talking to me today.

BH: I wudn't (wasn't) doing nothing else.

B: Okay.

BH: I would like if you could to get that when you put that about him a hauling them boys to get that picture in there if you can.

B: Okay.

BH: If it can be done I think they will I think they will put those pictures in there free of charge I believe the Williamson Daily News will be glad to that to get that news.

B: Well, I'll contact 'em and make sure like I said uh...

BH: You take that picture with you and take care it and put the name on it if you want to.

B: Okay. Well, thank you.

BH: John Wallace Hatfield.

B: I'm not going to put it on the back because apparently now that can the ink will come through if they ever try to make a copy.

BH: Well, you'll know who it is anyhow because you've got it there, just give her that envelope just give her that.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection