Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Ted Ball Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center. I'm in the home of Reverend T. R. Ball...

Ted Ball: Elder I won't except the Reverend...

B: Okay.

TB: Cause they ain't but one Reverend in the Bible and that's God.

B: Okay. I'm sorry that's my mistake. Elder.

RB: Okay.

B: Elder T. R. Ball, he's known as Teddy Ball and today's date is July 24th I believe.

TB: I think so honey.

B: July 24th, 1989 and I'm here on the behalf of the Matewan Development Center. My first question Elder Ball is when you were born and where you were born?

TB: I was born at Ball Fork, Pinson Fork, Kentucky, on Pond Creek. And I lived there 'til I was five years old.

B: Okay. And who were your parents?

TB: My daddy was Marion Francis, Marion Ball.

B: Okay. And your mothers name?

TB: And my mother was a Elizabeth Hatfield.

B: Okay. And what year were you born?

TB: I was born September the 16th, nineteen and thirteen. I'll be 76 the 16th of this September coming.

B: Okay. Now your mother was she related to the feuding Hatfields?

TB: Oh yeah.

B: She was?

TB: Oh yeah.

B: How was that? How was she related?

TB: She was related through my grand daddy was first cousin to them.

B: Okay. And what was his name?

TB: Jacob Hatfield.

B: Okay.

TB: And his mother was Elizabeth Cline. My mother was named after her grandmother and his daddy was Thomas Hatfield. And on my daddies side his daddy was Martin Ball. And his mother was Margaret Blackburn. And...and Martin's daddy was uh...uh...Billy Ball. And his mother was uh...Susan Hensley.

B: Okay. Was this Billy Ball was he the one that either had twenty-four children or was one of twenty-four children?

TB: No...no...uh...my granddaddy Ball's daddy Billy he was...there was three brothers came from uh...Tazewell, not Tazewell uh...Russell County, Virginia. And one of them was settled on Ball Fork and carried the name Ball Fork after him. And one of them was settled on Pinson Fork over on Pond Creek and the other one settled over here at Lick Creek in West Virginia.

B: Oh my goodness.

TB: And that's where we come from. I mean all I know about where we come from.

B: The reason why I was asking was uh...Mr. Phillips your sister had a notation in here Bible that one of the Ball's had twenty-four children or was one of twenty-four children and she said you would know if that was....

TB: Oh uh...uh...now let me study a minute uh...she got the wrong one in mind. Our grandmother Ball her daddy out of his...there was two families.

B: Okay.

TB: And they was twenty-four of them. There was twelve of the first uns (ones)...and twelve of the last uns (ones)...

B: Oh...ok.

TB: That's on...that's on that my grandmother Ball, Margaret Ball's side.

B: Okay. And she was...so it was of the Blackburn family.

TB: She was a Blackburn and her mother was Lucindie (Lucinda) Bevins and uh...the Blackburn man, his daddy and I don't remember his daddy's name, but I remember, I can remember Lucindie and uh...so uh...his daddy was married twice so my great granddaddy was twelve of the first uns (ones).

B: Okay.

TB: Out of the twelve first uns (ones).

B: Okay.

TB: Henry Blackburn.

B: Okay.

TB: And he got killed. Somebody killed him. And then my great granddaddy married again and had twelve more.

B: Okay.

TB: Now that's the one in my opinion they though...they was a thinking about.

B: Okay. That makes it a little more...

TB: Otherwise for Aileen to understand it if she hears it Pearl Hatfield's daddy was...and she knows...she goes to church where Pearls two girls does. So uh...uh...Pearl's daddy was one out of the last family.

B: Oh, okay.

TB: Out of the last bunch.

B: Oh, okay.

TB: Yeah so he was a half brother to my great granddaddy.

B: Oh.

TB: That was Jake Blackburn.

B: Um...ok was Elizabeth Cline related to the Perry Cline that was the lawyer?

TB: Lawyer...absolutely a sister to him.

B: Okay.

TB: Now that's my grandmother.

B: Okay...your grandmother.

TB: That's on my mothers side. That's on my mother's side.

B: Did you know your grandmother Cline?

TB: No my grandmother died before I was born.

B: Okay. Did you ever hear any stories about um...your great Uncle Perry? Did they family talk about his involvement in the feud?

TB: Well no...no. No Uncle Perry he was a lawyer at Pikeville. I that's all I know. Old man Perry Cline he was a lawyer lived and died over there at Pikeville. So I don't even remember him. He's just...what it is my granddaddy talked about it.

B: Okay.

TB: And uh...Walter Charles's mother was one of them. One of the Cline's and...and Uncle Art McCoy's mother...Uncle Art McCoy and my granddaddy was first cousins. Their mother was sisters. Uncle Art stayed a many a night with us.

B: Oh really?

TB: Yeah why the Hatfield and McCoy related. Yeah.

B: Okay. Did anybody ever talk about the feud when you were a little boy? Were there stories told?

TB: Oh I heard my granddaddy talk about it. It started right out up here. And uh...you know back then only way people had a living is what they raised. Well the McCoy's hog had got in the Hatfield's corn. So they them to it. And told them to put it up. That they'd been in the corn...and see that corn was for their bread to feed their cows, horses and so on and uh...so they didn't put them up so they come back and the Hatfield's killed them. And that started it. It started from that. So Ellison Hatfield there was three McCoy boys I don't know what their names was they...they got into it at election. And preacher Anderson Hatfield up here lived right up here he went out and got first down. Though he had it stopped. And he went back in where I reckon he must have been one on the board and he went back in where they's voting. So they go into it again and they cut Ellis all to pieces. And they took the three McCoy's down here just before you cross they bridge into Matewan on this side at Buskirk. And an old school house stood there and they put them...put them three lock them up in that school house. And Devil Anse you've heard of Devil Anse?

B: Yes sir.

TB: So Devil Anse said if my brother lives the law will settle it, but if my brother dies I'll settle it. So that night sometime in the night Ellis died. And they went and got the three McCoys out and brought them around to this little holler first little hollow you come to as you come from Matewan around there and killed all three of them. So that started the feud. That started the feud.

B: How was Lark McCoy involved in that?

TB: Now I couldn't tell you. I don't know if Uncle Lark was in on it or not. I couldn't tell you that honey. Just knowed Uncle Lark and his family. Knowed all his family. They ain't but one a living of his children. And uh...there ain't none of my grand daddies a living. All of my aunts and uncles is dead and my mother. And uh...ain't got an aunt or uncle on my daddy's side a living. and uh...

B: Okay.

TB: Have you got that all?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Can you cut if off just a minute? (tape cuts off)

B: I guess my next question is um...where did you go to school when you were little?

TB: Who me?

B: Um-hum.

TB: I went right up in the head of the left fork of Blackberry to the school, an old school house.

B: And what they'd call school house?

TB: Huh?

B: What did they call that school house?

TB: They called it Blackberry school.

B: Okay.

TB: Blackberry grade school.

B: Who was your teacher?

TB: Law honey I had so many I see back then we had the farm. We had farm to eat.

B: Right.

TB: Well I didn't get to go to school much, cause I had my grand daddy and grandmother was old. And I had to stay there and help them. So I had uh...uh...Ruth Williams and...and uh...Roy Dotson and uh...Sidney Smith, and Frank Hall I can remember them. And Ines Elswick and yeah and Uncle    ____ uh...Dotson's, Anna, Anna Dotson she taught one school. And Fred Hackney taught one school so that's all I can remember of it.

B: Okay.

TB: So I just went...I just completed the fourth grade and ready for the fifth grade.

B: Okay.

TB: But I run the store and been in business. I've got a better education right now than when I quit school.

B: So were you raised on your grandparents farm then?

TB: Yes in deed.

B: Okay. Now Mrs. Phillips told me that you and she have different mothers right?

TB: Yeah.

B: Okay.

TB: See my mother is Elizabeth Hatfield, her mother is Myrtle Coeburn.

B: Okay. So did your parents divorce or...

TB: My parents divorced when I was five years old.

B: How many brothers or sisters did you have?

TB: Just one and she died when she was three years old.

B: Okay. So I've got uh...Bertie Ward and Aileen and Norma Thomas, and William Thong(?) is a brother. And Bill uh...Bill Crum which is Bill Ball to start with, before she married. Aileen calls her brother Tom, Bill. So we got two Bill's in the family.

B: Oh Okay. Okay. Um...lets see did your father farm for a....no your father was a school teacher...

TB: My father was a school teacher.

B: That's right. Okay. Okay. How long a school day did you all have when you went to school?

TB: When I went?

B: Um-hum.

TB: Six months.

B: Okay six months.

TB: But now we didn't get to go all that. None of us did.

B: Really.

TB: But we had to work at home.

B: Because of the farm?

TB: Huh?

B: Because of the farm having...

TB: Oh yeah we had to work at home.

B: What kind of work did you do on your grandparents farm?

TB: Well, honey we raised everything you can imagine. You just imaging and we raised it. Corn and tomatoes, beans, we raised everything we'd eat. Only thing my grand daddy had to buy was sugar, coffee, and salt, and flour. Them's the only four things he had to buy. We made molasses, lot of times we sweetened out stuff from molasses when we couldn't buy no sugar.

B: Um...ok. What..did your grandfather sell things to get money for the...

TB: Huh?

B: Did your grandfather sell things to get money for the supplies he did have to buy?

TB: Well we raised cattle and he'd...we'd cell about every fall we'd cell a few head of cattle. That's the way he got his money pay his tax and live on. And then later I got big enough to peddle. Why I'd take an old mule and take two or three bushel of beans take fried chickens, take eggs, Pond Creek was a working a camp I'd take it over there and sell it and get the money and buy groceries.

B: Okay.

TB: If people had to live now like we had to live they'd starve to death.

B: That's why I was asking it seems like it'd be a silly question but people don't know anymore how people use to live.

TB: See we raised cane and made molasses we tapped uh...sugar trees and made sugar trees, sugar with sugar tree syrup.

B: How did you all make the sugar tree sugar? Could you tell me how that...you did that?

TB: Well, we bore a hole in the sugar tree and put a pipe in it and that water that runs out of it we had a bucket and then we had a big kittle (kettle) outside in a furnace and we'd put in there and boil it and boil it and boil it and boil it down 'til it made sugar or boil it down if you wanted syrup, boil 'til it was syrup. And it wasn't very sweet you had a lot of boiling to do you'd have to boil a lot of water to get a little sugar or a little syrup.

B: Really.

TB: And we'd sing you if you know what that is the mountains. Go in the mountains and dig sing. And dig urbs [sic] and roots and sell it get what we could out of that.

B: Can you remember any of the other urbs and roots that you all would dig?

TB: Yeah we'd dig uh...uh...they call it red root now we call it macumb, macumb when we dug it. But it's called a red root I think now. And lay apple and yellow.

B: Was this...were they medicinal urbs?

TB: Huh?

B: Were they medicinal urbs that they sold?

TB: Oh they was urbs honey that we that's what we got...we dig the cell but every fall and I couldn't remember to tell you to save my life all they are. But we'd gather urbs and tie them up for the winter to make medicine out of them. We'd get every kind of urb grand daddy and them knew about. And we'd tie them up and hang them up and let them dry out. Any of us got sick why they'd knowed what to do. They take...take them urbs boil them, put a little whiskey in them and fix it give it to us. That's all we had to doctor with. One maybe doctor around here.

B: Who would you all sell the urbs and things to?

TB: Huh?

B: Did you sell the urbs to local people or...

TB: No uh...they was some feller from Pikeville I don't know it if can think of his name or not, I know it if I could think of it, but any how he come through and bought them. Come through on a horse, rode horse back. And he'd come through and buy a load and take them. And then come back and buy another load where ever he could buy them. But I don't remember, I know his name if I could think of it but I can't. He was from over at Pikeville though.

B: Okay.

TB: Grier.

B: Grier.

TB: I don't know his first name buy Grier was his last name.

B: Okay. So doctors did come much everybody doctored them selves?

TB: I lets see...before ever I remember seeing the doctor I guess I was well later on I'd joined the church, and I joined the church when I was seventeen.

B: Oh my goodness.

TB: And it was that or that. And but I knowed of old Doc Burgess was in Williamson and he'd catch the train up Pond Creek my grandmother Ball, Margaret Ball she fell and broke her hip and she was in a chair all the time. My grandaddy had to do the work and she took them epilepsy fits and so this doc Burgess would I know about him, you know I don't know him but I know about him that he'd come up on the train you know used to be the train had a station here and a station there and a station up yonder so he come around to what they call peg at number five they called peg station. And they he'd walk up Ball Fork to granny's to see her she...he'd give her medicine all the time for that.

B: Could you describe their house for me? What kind of house did you all live in?

TB: Who? Grand daddy...

B: Right...

TB: The one I was raised in?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Well hit (it) was a...hit was a box house strip...strips it's a regular box house strip or strips and sealed on the inside of course. Had the old time ceiling, had the old time ceiling. But we first now grand daddy sold the first house was a log house. You know what a log house is don't you?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Old timey log house that grand daddy's sister sold out above him, had a better house than him and she was anxious to sell out so he sold out the log house and we moved up to this one. Hit was boxed and striped and had ceiling on the inside of it. And that was the first ceiling I ever saw.

B: Okay.

TB: I was a pretty good size boy, I guess I eight or ten years old when they sold out and moved up there.

B: On the uh...on the logs how were they notched? Were they square notched or were they kind of Y-notched? How were the ends of the logs notched? Do you remember?

TB: Well uh...honey I couldn't tell you but they notched this end to fit down over this other, and I couldn't tell you how he notched it. That was the only thing I know of...We got a old log church house over in Washington County the inside of it, or the old log them old big wide logs wide as the back of that couch. Where them old people had used and built that church house.

B: Okay and you say the next house you lived in was a stripped? Was...

TB: Boxed and stripped had ceiling inside of it.

B: Okay. Could you explain to me how that looked so I can...so we can have it on tape?

TB: Well it was just uh...that ceiling was mashed you know you never seen no ceiling?

B: No sir I'm not sure what you mean...I'm...

TB: Well it uh...a little strip about that wide and it's got a notch there glue there and one here and you just keep putting on top of one another 'til you get up to the log. The side of it. Then over head you do the same thing.

B: Okay. Now I understand.

TB: Turn that off just a minute...(tape cuts off)

B: Okay. So did your mother have any other family living with your grandparents or when you...was it...

TB: Yeah my uh...aunt, moms sister uh...see my mother and her sister Nancy married two brothers. Marion Ball, and Tom Ball. Aileen's name is Aileen Marion and her sister's name is Norma Thomas...

B: Oh, Okay.

TB: Was named after them two brothers.

B: Oh Okay.

TB: And uh...so Aunt Nancy had uh...two children by Uncle Tom my dads brother and uh...she was pregnant with the third one when he died. He died when that flu went around so bad and killed so many people years ago. Nineteen, seventeen, and eighteen, and uh...so she stayed with grand daddy a long time and he raised that baby one that she had her Uncle Tom died Ines. And he raised uh...lets see...he raised nine of his own and two of his grandchildren.

B: Do you remember when the flu cam [sic] through? Do you remember that?

TB: Barely. I can remember enough about it that the next family lived above us was all in the bed with the flu and we didn't have no road back then just a little path. And I can remember holding to my grandmother dress table and going around that little path going with her up there to cook for them people that was all down with the flu. And that's about all I can remember about that.

B: So you didn't get sick with it.

TB: No. My grand daddy didn't and my mother didn't and they went in it uh...Em Hatfield's wife died with it there wasn't go in and my grand daddy and his twin brother Joe went in and dressed and put her in the coffin and brought her outside there wasn't anybody even go in the house. I heard him tell it a many a time.

B: So did they...they tried to quarantine families and people wouldn't go and have anything to do with people that were sick?

TB: A lot would but now my grandmother went and cooked for them all the time. I can remember holding to her dress table. I was that little.

B: Did anyone...

TB: She...I lived up...we lived up in the head of this creek. Left Fork of Blackberry Creek. Well they never...everybody was quarantined up in there. Anybody...wasn't afraid of it. They was afraid to go. So they had to go help one another out had to. So my grand daddy and grandmother helped them and neither one of them ever did take it, never did.

B: Did they ever have an opinion why they didn't? Did they...

TB: No they just...no, nothing no reason. Uh...my grandmother I can remember when I was a little boy about time the flu was going around she kept a bottle of Fidity(?) You know what Fidity is?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Alright they had their uh...little box of Fidity and they'd roll it up in a little ball and tie it and put it in a rag and tie it around you neck. Claimed that kept you from catching any disease.

B: Uh...where did that come from? Was that, do you know was that...

TB: I reckon they got it at the store honey I don't know where it come from. I just know they had it.

B: Was your Uncle Tom was he a sickly man? Because it seems rare...

TB: No honey he just took that flu honey is what...there was so many people died with it. That was in 17 and 18. You know back then, of course you don't remember that's before you was ever thought of, but uh...back then they just...law just...died every where with it.

B: We were just wondering it seems strange that it was killing...it killed people that were relatively young and then older people and younger...

TB: See Uncle Tom was uh...lets see I really couldn't tell where, dad were older and Uncle Tom, Uncle Tom older than him. I know this much it must not have been much difference because I was born September the 16th, and Aunt Nancy and Uncle Tom's oldest one was born December the 10th. So they couldn't have been much difference in our age...in their age.

B: Right.

TB: And uh...I believe Aileen was, did Aileen say she was eight years old when dad got killed?

B: Uh...I think so...she was five.

TB: Five.

B: She was five she said.

TB: Well now there was three of them. There was three of them, and I figured she might have been about eight I don't know. But I know how old I was, I was fourteen years old like the day that dad, the 16th of September dad got killed the 17th.

B: Um...

TB: He was a coming to see me the day he got killed.

B: Um...she said that she thought that he was...he was ambushed by a man that took him for somebody that turned him in for moonshining is that...

TB: Yeah...yeah. Shot every shot in the back....(tape cuts off)

B: We were talking abut when your father got ambushed. You might have to do that from the beginning.

TB: Well Kenny Smith he knew him and he come along as they shot him. And picked him and taking him, there was a hospital down at Matewan at that time, and he picked up and started with him to the hospital. And there was a little store right out there just a little ways down there, Estil Sullivan run it and he told Kenny he said "get me out and lay me on that porch up there said I'm about to die". And they got him out and laid him on the porch and he died there on the store porch right out down there.

B: Um...

TB: I was fourteen years old, you can tell how long it's been. I'll be uh...76 in September and I was 14 years old the day before.

B: So it was...that was 62 years ago.

TB: How long?

B: 62 years ago. Almost 62 years ago. Did anybody ever say anything to either one of your parents about divorcing? Divorce was not as rare as people think back then but it was kind of rare wasn't it?

TB: Now hit was rare but dad loved mom, and mom loved dad. And they both separated on dad running around on her.

B: Um...ok.

TB: And I've heard him say don't you tell Aileen this I've heard him say a many a time, later he married again and he won't give moms little finger for every woman he ever saw. And I've heard my mother say it and she married again. That she wouldn't give Mary Ball's little finger for every man she ever saw. That's how much they though of one another. But dad was the cause of it, running around.

B: But you say your mother did marry again?

TB: My mother married again and dad did too.

B: Did your mother have any more children after she remarried?

TB: Yeah mom had uh...three girls and one of them got burnt up...got her dress a fire and got burnt up when she was uh...about six, five, or six years old. And the two of them lived 'til one of them died this February was a year ago. And one of them...the baby one she still lives up the creek here.

B: Now did you stay with your grandparents after your mother remarried or did you live with your...

TB: Oh yeah I stayed with my grand dad. I stayed with my grand daddy and grandmother 'til I got married. And then when I got married my grand daddy and grandmother, he had youngin's. See my real grandmother died before mom ever was married. And grand daddy married again. All the grandmother I know was the last one he married. She was Jane Belcher.

B: Okay.

TB: Now that was the only grandmother I ever knew.

B: Okay.

TB: And she and grand daddy raised me 'til I married. And when I married she had young one's. Her and grand dad never had no young ones. But she had young ones before him and her married and he had youngin's. Alright they didn't...neither one of them go stayed with either of their young ones when I got married and moved out they broke out house keeping and come and stayed with me and my wife 'til they died, both of them.

B: Um...ok.

TB: So they took care of me and I took care of them.

B: That's great. Did uh...was she a widow then or...

TB: Yeah my grandmother was. My grandmother lived to be 94.

B: Um....

TB: And grand daddy was 84 when he died.

B: Uh...did they...did any...did your grandfather or anyone that you knew when you were a little boy ever talk about Civil War stories? I know...

TB: No honey I don't know one thing about or just heard about it.

B: Okay.

TB: I couldn't tell you one things about the Civil War.

B: Okay.

TB: I've heard my grand daddy Hatfield say that they'd come his grand daddy bees and said his grand daddy uh...his daddy had laid out a many night you know they fought back then you know take everything you had. And they'd come in and get honey out of the bee combs and tear the bees...the bee combs up and so on. That's about all I've ever...just what I've heard grand daddy say about it. As fer as remembering one thing I guess it was before my day that Civil War was.

B: Okay.

TB: But I've heard grand daddy say his daddy laid out a many a night, on account they afraid they'd kill him.

B: Um...ok. Um...you were saying before that your mother was Freewill Baptists.

TB: Yeah.

B: Okay and then when you were 17 you joined a different...

TB: I joined the primitive Baptists. Old regular primitive Baptists...Old regular primitive Baptists.

B: Okay.

TB: And I can tell you if you want to find it the first church was organized in the United States.

B: Oh really?

TB: In Philadelphia. Old Welch Track Church. That was the first one that was organized by anything in the United States. And it's still there today, not the same house but the church is still there today.

B: Do you know what year that was?

TB: No I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.

B: Okay.

TB: But that was...what year was it we come here in?

B: Oh um...

TB: Two hundred...

B: In the sixteen hundreds or in the seventeen hundreds you mean or...

TB: It was in the seventeen hundreds wasn't we come here?

B: Okay.

TB: Well now it was organized shortly after we come here.

B: Okay.

TB: And uh...uh...and the first church ever was around here in uh...a primitive Baptists was over here at Red Jacket. You know where Red Jacket is don't you?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Well alright well at the mouth of Low Gap Branch where you go over the hill to Pigeon Creek right there is the mouth of that branch. And it was Enon Primitive Baptists Church.

B: Okay.

TB: When we get through I'll show you a picture of the old man that organized it.

B: Okay. Can you tell me something, I'm not from around here so I've never learned what the differences are between the different Baptists churches, could you explain some?

TB: Well honey it's all different.

B: Okay.

TB: Any denomination that I've ever know of, believes, some believes you have to be baptized in holy water to go to Heaven. Some believes you have to work your way there, but we believe that if we could have got there any other way except Christ shedding his blood for us on Calvary that we'd a been long gone.

B: Okay.

TB: And that he shed his blood and redeemed everyone that father give you. Now if he give him everybody alright by me and if he didn't give him everybody it's alright by me. Whatever God give him he redeemed him. And you know what the word redeemed mean don't you?

B: Yes sir. Um...

TB: And to prove my point in Isaiah it says "ye have sold yourself for a naught, but you shall be", and the word shall is positive, "you shall be redeemed without money". The word shall be is a pointing toward the future, right?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Huh?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Then you go to the first chapter of Luke and it said "blessed be the Lord God of Israel for he hath"...now this is already done, "for he hath visit and redeemed his people". You'll find that in the fifty-first chapter...uh...verse I believe. And then Peter wrote, Peter said "seeing that we were"...we're already "redeemed not by corruptible things that are gold and silver but by the precious Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ." So it's plain..it's plain doctrinism if anybody can understand it. And Jesus said "all that my father hath given me shall come to me". Well you know what the word shall means.

B: Yes sir.

TB: Means they'll come. Then he tells you how they'll get there. By my love and by my kindness have I drawn them. Not drawed at them, but drawed them.

B: Okay. We want...

TB: And there is salvation, and you know what salvation is deliverance, and there is salvation in none other but in the Lord. And he said "by my own arm have I broke salvation down".

B: Okay. Um...we I've...

TB: Otherwise honey we believe it's all in the Lord and none of it in me and you.

B: Okay.

TB: Otherwise Paul said in his writing "in him we live, in him we move, in him we have our bid". So we believe everything that we it's out duty to describe all glory and all praise to the Lord and not to no man.

B: Okay.

TB: Did you get that?

B: Yes sir.

TB: Well I want you to have it.

B: Okay. Now we've been asking...

TB: And I want to explain this to you...

B: Okay.

TB: You know you said Reverend...

B: Yes sir.

TB: Now you can call some of these fellers Reverend they walk off like a little banty rooster, they ain't but one Reverend in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations. "Reverend art thou Lord all mighty".

B: Okay.

TB: That's the only Reverend you'll find honey.

B: Okay.

TB: The old mans a telling you the truth.

B: So you all believe in just saying Elder? Your Elder Ball that's all you are?

TB: Our preachers go by the name Elder.

B: Okay.

TB: And the Bible says I'll give you the book. The Bible says "call the older ones Elder and the younger ones Brother".

B: Okay. So if uh...if a young minister he's called brother so and so...

TB: Well they put him down as Elder.

B: Okay. If you don't mind we've been asking about different customs do uh..say some Baptists churches don't' believe in dancing some don't believe in women wearing pants, can you describe some of what...

TB: Well now we don't' mind for our sisters to wear pants at home. Our if they go onto the store or that. But we don't mind them a wearing them to church.

B: Okay.

TB: Now we don't preach on what people wears.

B: Okay. How about their hair...

TB: We don't preach on their hair. That's their business they way they want to wear their hair.

B: Okay. How about alcohol or tobacco or anything kind of like that?

B [TB]: Yeah our people we don't believe in...we don't believe in drunkenness now. We believe if you use whiskey for a medical purpose there's no harming. You can sit a gallon down there if you and me didn't bother it it'd never bother us right?

B: Right.

TB: And the Bible said "it's not that, that goith in ya defiles you, it's that comes out". Well us older ones doctored with whiskey. Well we still do. If I take the flu of the winter time I get me two lemons and boil them. And ginger to put in it and put a little whiskey in it. And just as hot as I can drink it, and go to bed and sweat it out.

B: Okay.

TB: We don't' believe the harm's in the whiskey, the harm's in the man and women that drinks it.

B: and likewise tobacco you don't see...

TB: Tobacco we don't hold it...I chew tobacco I smoked for about forty years, cigarette and they was about to kill me and I quit and went to chewing. Of course they're some people thinks it uh...this is just one that a lady run up uh...a lady a preacher or some other denomination run up to one of our preachers he's a chewing tobacco and he said that don't' you know that, that is filthy? This old man looked at him he said "that book you've got under your arm says "he's as filthy let it be filthy still". Yeah and he said, he said "don't you know that's your worst enemy?" He said "that book under your arm says love your enemies"? And said "I sure do love it"

B: How about healing through faith...

TB: Huh?

B: Do you all believe in healing through faith?

TB: Well now here's how we believe, we believe if you were sick and the Lord give you a mind to call me to come and pray for you, we believe that if it's God's will that hit will be answered. But hit's got to be God's will.

B: Okay. So but you all aren't apposed then to people going to doctors?

TB: Huh? No....Lord no honey. I go to the doctor when I need to.

B: Like I said we're asking these....

TB: I mean I think that's foolish...

B: Okay.

TB: I think it's foolish for somebody to say that lay a supper say I don't believe in going to the doctor. To me that is just ignorance.

B: Okay.

TB: Because when anything is hurting me bad enough when it gets to hurting bad enough I'd take anything to get a little relief and you would to.

B: Okay. Um...lets see....

TB: And we don't have music. Don't believe in natural music in the church. We sing the apostle Paul said "when you sing, sing with a spirit, and when you pray, pray likewise". And we believe that we make our own music when the Lord bless us to sing them old songs. And we    ____. You know what    ____ is?

B: Yes sir. Mrs. Phillips described it to me but what...where did you all get that custom? Do you know?

TB: Yeah. The custom was that when old Baptists first come from across the sea and come here Aileen wanted to know how far I could trace the old Baptists back. I said "if you want me I could trace it back to John the Baptists". I said "can you go back any further than that"? And I said "there's no name on earth that give us the name Baptists". I said "Christ said to the disciples"..."what went you out into the sea a reed shaken by the wind or a prophet?" But I said "Christ said nah more than a prophet, among them is borned a women there's not a greater than John the Baptist". Christ give us the name Baptists we didn't pick it. He give us that name Baptists. And we added the...see the missionary Baptist split off from us, the Church of Christ, old man Alexander Camel was baptized a primitive Baptists, that's the only baptism he ever had. And he set up what's called the Church of Christ. He went to preaching infant Baptism and the old Baptists excluded him. And he sit that up I...I got a book of that history of them. And so everything else has had developed out from the primitive Baptists. And out people, when they went to splittin, they went by the name Baptists, old regular Baptists, they went by that name for years. But as the splits all gone they added the word primitive Baptists. The word primitive means first, original, and oldest. You know what it means.

B: Okay. So uh...what did the missionary Baptists split off because of?

TB: Huh?

B: Do you know why the...

TB: Yeah because they wanted the old Baptists to make up money to send preachers overseas to them heatherns (heathens) when we had as many heatherns here as they had over there.

B: Okay. So um...in your church if you don't believe in infant baptism the people have to reach an age of accountability before they can be baptized what...

TB: No the Lord come to John the Baptists before he was ever born. When he was in his mothers womb. The Bible said "God's the same yesterday, today, and forever". God never changes he can come to one before it's born, he can come to it at three years old, two years old, one year old, or ninety years old.

B: Um-hum. Okay. What kind of uh...I'm sorry go ahead.

TB: You know you'd heard say that...that when you got twelve years old you become accountable. They ain't a word of truth in it. Because the only thing they got to go by, and that doesn't say one line of that, Christ...if you remember his daddy and mother had been up, or his supposed daddy had been up to Jerusalem to a    ____ or maybe to pay tax whatever. And on their way back they missed him. And they went back to hunt for him and they found him asking and answering questions with the doctors of law and so on. And they was astonished at him and they said well we know this boy he is Mary and Joseph's boy where did he get all this education. Well he had the wisdom from God and God give him what he had. And they said why, his mother said why uh...trouble us...he said "I just be about my fathers business". So that's why they claimed twelve years old because he was twelve years old when he said he had to be about his fathers business.

B: Oh.

TB: So there's nothing in that to say that your...my daddy and mother was responsible 'til I'm twelve or this and that. You're in Kentucky now you couldn't by West Virginia law to save your life. Don't' make a difference what you do, because you're not in the state of West Virginia.

B: Okay.

TB: Well the Bible says I'll make a new covenant with a house of Israel you know reading it in the I believe the eighth chapter of Hebrews, "I'll make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, not like the covenant that I made with their father when I brung them up out of the land of Egypt, and they continued not as my statue and many of the fell in the wilderness and died"...because wasn't belief and all of that he said but I'll make an new covenant well new ain't the old one, right?

B: Right.

TB: And this is the covenant that I'll make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and to those days. That was that was the law days. I'll put my law in their heart, I'll write in their mind one says, one says write in their heart and put it in their mind vice a versa but meaning the same thing. and I'll be unto them a God that they shall be unto me a people. Now listen at me. They shall not teach their neighbor or their brother to know the Lord for they all shall know me from the least to the greatest.

B: Okay. Uh...I've got another...

TB: Then I'll give ya...let me give you another one.

B: Okay.

TB: The tenth chapter of John, St. John "my I am the good shepherd, I give my life for the sheep", now he a talking to them I understand and went on in the same chapter he said "other sheep I have"...which is none of this Jew that's us gentiles, he broke down the middle wall of attention between the Jew and the gentiles "so other sheep I have which is not of the Jewish    ____ them also I'm also I'm a spring. He didn't say I'd sent Teddy Ball after some of them or some other preacher after them, but I'm a gonna bring them and they'll be one shepherd and one fool. And I'm the good shepherd and I give my life for the sheep and they hallow your hearts the door and he's a knocking at the door well Jesus didn't say that he said "I am the door". He said that and I'm preaching he's the door. And if me and you ever get in we got to go back in.

B: Okay. I guess my next preceedural question is uh...how do you all feel abut women ministers you know...

TB: No...no. There ain't no where in the Bible that you'll ever find that Christ sent a woman out to preach. No. I believe a woman can praise the Lord as good as me or anybody else and I believe she can tell good experience how the Lord dealt with her and all of that but I don't believe...well I wouldn't even sit and listen to one.

B: Okay. Because you don't...

TB: There's no where in the Bible that you can find that Christ ever sent a woman. He chose twelve he sent them out to preach the gospel. Then he called seventy and he sent them out two by two he said "go ye there fourth to all the world and preach the gospel". "He that believeth...he that believeth and is baptized". Not he that believeth and will be baptized. But he that believeth and is, the word is means already...he's already baptized. You remember John said "I indeed baptism you with water but there will come but there will come one day to me whose shoes I'm not worthy of loosing". He'll baptism you by the fire and the Holy Ghost.

B: Right.

TB: Well alright that's the Baptism. That's the Baptism from ___.

B: Okay. So if the woman preacher said the Lord's called me preach would you think then that she'd been mislead or...

TB: I'd say she...there was something wrong.

B: Okay.

TB: She's been deceived some way or another.

B: Okay.

TB: Ah...there was one in the hospital down here with me I'll tell you this one she was an old woman too, and she claimed she was trying to preach well I said "alright" I said...she sent for me to come in and try to talk with her. She found out I was there and I went in. She said "you don't believe in women preaching do you?" I said "yeah one way"...I said, "Paul wrote to the book of Timothy, I know you've read it"...Paul said, "he that desires an    ____ he now not she but he, that desires an    ____ desireth a good work. He must be blameless and the husband of one wife. Now I said old lady if you can be the husband of one wife you can preach. Why she said, "preacher Ball that's impossible", well I said, "that's impossible for you to preach to."

B: What'd she say back to you?

TB: She...she didn't have nothing to say.

B: Okay.

TB: I give her the book...I give her the book she couldn't deny the book.

B: Okay.

TB: She didn't nothing to say back because she didn't have nothing to back it up. Cause it said he, he is a man.

B: That's true.

TB: She is a woman, and he that desired a man, he that desired office of a bishop desireth a good work. He the man, must be blameless. Now there are none of us blameless in our natural Adam standing here in the world but if God called us and chosen us to preach the gospel why we're blameless in the sight of God for what he called us to do. And he...he must be the husband of one wife.

B: Now have you been preaching since you joined the primitive...

TB: No I went to preaching in 34.

B: Okay. I have some uh...some other questions of that are more history oriented uh...do you remember hearing anything about the Matewan Massacre...

TB: The what?

B: The Matewan Massacre? Did you ever hear about that? The shooting down in Matewan?

TB: I just know a little bit about it honey. Uh...Aunt Vick Hatfield's husband got killed when they had that shooting down there, and that's about all I know. I baptized her and she was a good old woman. But I don't even remember her husband. And uh...so I don't know nothing about that. I know I mean I've heard all about it but to know anything about it I don't

B: Do you remember anything else that you heard about it?

TB: No that's about all I can tell you about it.

B: Okay.

TB: I think they uh...one side of them was on the inside of the river and our side was over here on this side of the river. And they killed Ansey Hatfield with the uh...30 x 30 riffle.

B: Okay. How did uh...I meant to ask you this before how did you ancestors travel into this area? I mean how did your...I guess

TB: Horse back.

B: Horse back?

TB: Yeah.

B: Okay. And you say that they came from uh..Russell County, Virginia?

TB: Russell County, Virginia.

B: You wouldn't know the...the geography of how they traveled, what counties they came through or anything would you?

TB: Well now I know now what it is, I don't know what it was called back then. But they uh...Russell County joins uh...Tazewell and Buckhannan and Pike, so they had to come that way to get into Pike County.

B: Um...do you know why they came? Did they come to farm or...

TB: Uh...they just come...now back then honey you got land by mark boundary. Otherwise this land was vacant. My grand daddy up here, my great grand daddy Hatfield that was the only house there way up the left Fork. Well he got that land by mark boundary. He went through here marking trees went off the top of the hill he'd take up here at this point from the top of the hill of Marcums'    ____ go right around and went plum around the edge of the creek. He owned over a thousand acres that he's had marked...got it by mark boundary. Well then later he got a patten fer it, otherwise what we'd call a deed, he got a patten fer it.

B: Okay. We've been uh...trying to piece together...

B: This is tape two of Elder Ball interview and I'd was just asking him how people move things along the Tug Fork before the railroad came through. Did you ever hear stories about that?

TB: They moved in wagons honey and they moved to place to place in wagons and before they got a wagon why they had to what little they had they had to carry it on mules.

B: Okay.

TB: I've heard plenty of them old timers say that what little they had they moved it on mules. Carried on mules and they way they had beds they'd nail a like the corner of the house there they'd nail uh...put a plank there, come out here and put a post out of probably a 2 x 4 probably just a round piece of wood you know and then go back to that corner and fix a bed on it. I've heard them tell how...they didn't have nothing. Cooked on a fire place didn't even have a stove.

B: Um...ok uhm....when you were young um...what was the...what was the central place that people would go for supplies? I mean did people that lived up this way would they travel all the way to Matewan to get their supplies?

TB: No we had a little store. County store. And they had what they called drummer. He rode a horse back in here and he'd take the orders form these little country stores and send the order in where thy made it you know where or had it shipped. And they'd ship it on a train down here at Matewan. And they'd take their mules and wagons and haul it to the store.

B: Okay. They'd cross this river right down here at Matewan on ice and two mules and a wagon and they'd go over there at the depot and load that wagon down with groceries and the ice was thick enough...and they had ice nails in their horse shoe nails or mules nails and they'd come plum across that ice. That's all the way they had to cross that river. And come across that ice with a load of groceries. They just a county store you know. About...there was one here one a yander, far apart there wasn't there any close. I mean none of them...one of them...we had one up the left Fork. They had one down here at uh...at uh...mouth of Peter Fork little ways down the road here. And as far as I know one time that was the only two stores they had on the creek.

B: How old were you before you went to Matewan? Say you..do you remember your first trip to Matewan?

TB: I don't know but Matewan...Matewan Bank was organized the year I was born.

B: Oh Okay.

TB: It was organized in 1913, the year I was born.

B: Um...When did you get married?

TB: I got married March the 7th, nineteen and thirty-six.

B: Okay. How long had you and your wife been seeing each other before you got married?

TB: Well I met her at the association the second weekend in September in '35. And the March following the 7th we got married. And the first day I seen her I'd a married her just as quick that day as the day I married her.

B: Oh really? Was it love at first sight?

TB: I knowed she was my wife when I seen her. Somewhere right in here let me know that's my wife. And we lived together...she died in 1964.

B: How old was she when you married?

TB: She was 16 and I was 22.

B: So you say you met her at an association is that what you all called your church services or...

TB: We have association every year. That wasn't very many. We have that once a year. That tells you how old the association is, when it was organized.

B: Okay.

TB: See the churches was all organized before the association was.

B: Oh Okay. And uh...

TB: See an association is a gang of people associating together. We had them from Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Michigan, and well everywhere. We have them from all over the country. And uh....uh...the Governor of Virginia was there one year up in Virginia when they had that one...that was the Washington association. And oh they was like we are about big association there. And we got 17 churches and 12, or 13 hundred members. And uh...oh they was from everywhere all...and Governor Tuck for Virginia was there. And he said...and Elder Singleton was representative from uh...from Dickenson County up to ah...I know where...what is it where the headquarters where the governor of Virginia stays in, do you remember it?

B: Richmond?

TB: Richmond....Richmond...Richmond. So he wanted to know how we ever managed to get that many people there. Rene said well Governor Tuck he said " you've got your hotel bill is paid right there at Richmond but you drive so many miles home every night and back of the morning why do you do it? He said, "why Rene I love my family and I want to go back and stay with them". He said, "Well that's why them peoples here they love one another and they come here".

B: Oh Okay. What's the uh...how does a man become a preacher in the primitive Baptists religion? I mean do they have to be ordained? Does he have to pass a test or...

TB: Well we feeled if we believed that if God gives the church a gift, if it's a Deacon, if it's a preacher we believe that God will let the church know. And if the church believes that he's got burden and a desire to preach they'll call on you.

B: Okay.

TB: To start with they'll let him start out over prayer. And then after he holds prayer a while they'll put him up to preach. And if he ever blessed...blowed the trumpet you know the Bible says, "blow ye the trumpet of    ____, sound the alarm in thine Holy mountains, life up your voice like a trumpet". That's how to stand there and make a little missionary talk. And if he's blessed to preach then they'll ordain him. But if he was never blessed to preach he's just out of the race.

B: So there's not like a big national hierarchy...

TB: No...honey. We...we go by what the Lord gives us in our heart to feel about anybody.

B: Okay.

TB: You know the Bible says uh..."hidden things belongs to the Lord but reveals it unto us".

B: Okay.

TB: Right.

B: Yes sir.

TB: And if you remember the church what it was established on the Lord ask Peter...or ask the disciples he said "who do men say that I was son    ____" Well he'd tell them every time who he was. He was the son of man and the son of God too. He said who the son of man is, he said some says that your rose from the dead. Some says your John the Baptists. Well who do you see that I am...well Peter if you remember reading Peter seemed like he was always a spokesman for the crowd. Peter said thou art the Christ the son of the living God. He said Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jonah. For flesh and blood had not revealed this unto thee. Now you listen good at me, flesh and blood well the preacher's flesh and blood ain't he?

B: Um-hum.

TB: The Sunday school teacher's flesh and blood ain't she?

B: Um-hum.

TB: Flesh and blood is not revealed us to thee but my father which is in Heaven upon this rock I'll build my church. You've heard fellers holler my church the one that I have wouldn't be worth a brownie to you or nobody else. It's the Church of God...God's church. He said upon this rock I'll build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So the church was built on the revealing of God. If God never revealed anything to you then you don't know nothing about it. No man knows the father saved the son no man the son but to whom the son reveals himself to. So I believed for so many years of my life that there was a God. Where you might have pinned me down and ask me well Teddy why do you believe it. Grand daddy and grandmother told me there was and I believe they told me the truth. But when I felt him come in my life then I can tell you yes. I know there's a God for I felt him right in here. Right?

B: That's the best way to know.

TB: Huh?

B: I said that...

TB: That's the best way.

B: Okay. Alright.

TB: You could raise a baby up all it's life and never let it see no evil a going on and keep it right in the house. And unless that God reveals himself to that baby it gets a man or woman or whatever he made me unless God reveals something to him he don't know nothing about God. He might think he does but he don't.

B: Okay. Now if you don't mind I'll go back to some more personal questions.

TB: Okay.

B: Um...did you and your wife have any children?

TB: Three.

B: Three.

TB: Two girls and a boy.

B: I guess the next question is you married at the tale end of the depression, what do you remember about the Great Depression? Anything stand out in your mind about it?

TB: Now honey listen, we didn't have no groceries we raised what we eat and we had as through the depression as we had any other time.

B: So you really didn't notice the effects of....

TB: Never...it never bothered us one bit.

B: Okay.

TB: We had four or five big hogs to kill we had a beef to kill, we had our bread raised, we had everything canned and put up. So we didn't...the depression didn't bother us one bit.

B: Okay.

TB [B]: When you became uh...a preacher did you ever work in another job? Did you have a job...

TB: Oh Lord yeah. I worked in the mines. Honey we don't pay the preacher remember that. We believeth all that God give it free and we're suppose to give it to them free.

B: Okay. So the church doesn't pay ties to...

TB: No indeed we don't believe in it.

B: Okay. How long did you work in the mines?

TB: Well I had twenty years could have got my pension but the last two years I had to work at a non-union mines and knocked me out of my pay check. But I worked long enough to draw my social security and black lung.

B: What coal company did you work for?

TB: Well I worked for Red Jacket Coal Company some I worked eleven years down here at Almy Coal Company and I worked at Turney mine and company. And I worked for Ford...Ford owned Pond Creek I worked for them. If you take the money out of rain in my opinion you wouldn't find very many a trying to preach.

B: Oh really? So you all don't believe in taking money for preaching?

TB: We believe if the church wants to give you a little gas money fine but that's it.

B: Okay. So you don't think much of the TV evangelists then I suppose?

TB: No...no...no...no I sure don't. Fer there been too many of them got in trouble anyhow.

B: That's true.

TB: I heard one man tell the truth about it on television. He said they wasn't into it for a thing in the world but for their gain, and I believe it.

B: You wouldn't have remember his name do you? Do you remember who said that?

TB: No I don't. But he was on television. But I couldn't tell who he was.

B: Did you...when you worked in the mines did you load coal, were you...

TB: Yeah I load coal with a shovel.

B: Okay.

TB: They didn't have this equipment back then. You had to throw it in the car with a shovel.

B: What year did you work? You say you worked twenty years, did you work...

TB: Well I worked eleven years down here at Almy (New Alma?) right down here below where I live. And then I worked uh...I think it was three year at Red Jacket and three year at    ____ and I worked I guess about two years maybe four years    ____ over here at... my uncle took me in over here for Ford, and then I worked in two up there at the non-union mines in Virginia. All totaled made twenty year I had.

B: But say from when to when did you work say from the '40's to the '60's, or the '30's to...

TB: Huh?

B: When did you...what years did you work?

TB: Uh...my uncle took me in when I was seventeen...eighteen.

B: Okay.

TB: And uh...so I worked from that on up 'til I retired.

B: Okay.

TB: I got sick and the doctor took me out of the mines wouldn't let me go back in it. Wouldn't let me work in the dust no more.

B: Okay.

TB: And took me out on account of my heart. Said there's something wrong with my heart. He never would let me go back...that's when I was up in Virginia working he...I was working for Brother Harrison and his boy a running a mines and I was dumping coal fer them. And    ____ told brother Harrison not to let me work in there any other days. Said my heart was in too bad of shape to do it so that's when I got social security.

B: Okay. So uh...did you say...did I hear you right earlier when you said you ran a store for years?

TB: Yeah I ran a little grocery store then I ran a dry good store.

B: Okay.

TB: That was after I got through mining. 'Til that and my wife died I married again. And uh..so Aileen can tell you the story but anyway uh...she...we lived together about 13 years and I kept her mother right here. Good to her as it was my mother 'til she died. Her mother...preached her funeral...baptized her and preached her funeral. And she caught me gone and two truck loads. When she come here she brought her clothes that was it. Told me she had to go back to the doctor for a check up down at Lexington did I care for her staying. She had a sister lived down at Frankfort. Stayed with her the rest of that week and then go over to her other sister and brother at Ashland stayed the next week and me come and get her and I told her no I didn't care. And so I went on up to stay with the children 'til she come back and got ready to come back she's aiming to call me and buddy she got what I had and left and uh...we run that dry good store and we had I believe it was, it was either 13,700, or 11,700 but I believe 13...13,700 dollars in the bank. She got it all and took it with her. So I went over...she'd been gone about uh...lets see Dolly died in 64...74...84 uh...I guess Dolly will be dead 25 years the 22nd day of August. And so we married in 60...60 something I don't remember. And uh...but I've been...she been gone I'd say for ten years maybe longer I don't know.

B: Okay.

TB: The only time we got nay candy was once a year some peppermint stick candy. We'd hang our sock up beside of the chimney and when we'd get up the next morning they'd probably be a orange and a banana and a stick of candy in it. And we was tickled to death with it.

B: And that was Christmas?

TB: That was Christmas.

B: Okay.

TB: And we was glad to get it. But now they have Christmas everyday. That's why they don't appreciate it like we did.

B: How about the fourth of July? HOw did you all celebrate that?

TB: Over the July we always there's a feller come with a...in a wagon with watermelons, ice cream and fish and my grand daddy always would buy us a mess of fish, buy us some ice cream, and uh...buy us a watermelon. For the fourth of July that's what we got.

B: Okay.

TB: Or as I usually think some of us had worked out a little money that we bought it.

B: When did uh...you get your first automobile?

TB: I imagine honey it was up in the '40's. I walked and rode a mule to church.

B: What do you remember about World War II? Did uh...the people from your church did they uh...did they young men join up or were they ejectors?

TB: No they went to war.

B: Okay.

TB: Yes sir our people believes in fighting for our country.

B: Okay. Okay uh...is there anything that I haven't ask you about yet that you'd like to talk about?

TB: No not that I know of honey I just answering the questions that you ask me.

B: Okay.

TB: I uh...uh...you know personally I don't hold nobodies color or their nationality aginst (against) them. Cause if you go to Revelations it says "and God hath redeemed by his own blood, out of every kindred tongue, and nation, and people", and for that reason I don't hold nothing against, but I do believe this that our country would have been better off to left them feller over there and rather fed them. Just to run them over here...someday you might be able to see it but I won't but someday another you know the Bible says "we'll reap what we sow", and some...and we take it from the Indians and someday another you might be able to see it that if this world don't end before that they'll take it over and not shuttle not even a far shot. They're a bringing to many of them over here.

B: I just thought of...

TB: Listen you take up Grundy, Buckhannon County they've got two hospitals up there, they got one American doctor. Them...them feller got a little office here, little off yander I wouldn't know how many to tell you got right up there...and Grundy's a little town and well they say the first five years their over here they don't have to pay no tax but if our fellers does that they have to pay tax. You know it?

B: Um-hum.

TB: So now.

B: I just thought of one...one...

TB: And another thing honey we don't even know, you don't, I don't they may be some of them trying to doctor and ain't no more got a doctor degree than me and you have. You can't tell nothing about them. You know that. So now they're getting our country in a bad shape with them, I can tell you that. the longer you live the more you'll know it. I'm a getting old now long here but you'll find out...I'm a republican and I vote republican but if don't different democrat or republican. They're bringing too many over here. I know we're free country we believed in that we was organized on that. But you can over do anything. You can go beyond anything. So but I remember I don't hold nothing against no nationality. But I just think that we'd a been better to left them over there and kept fed them. I'd rather throwed in money to help fed them. And just left them at home.

B: Okay.

TB: I think our country would have been better off.

B: Okay. The other uh...I have one more quick question for you and that was did you have to join the union to work in the mines.

TB: Yes I did...yes I did honey.

B: Okay.

TB: Sure I believe in the union now I..if the union if they...if they destroy the union and these feller that's a forcing theirself to work they might be making big money now but if they do away with the union I'll tell you one thing they'll be a working for salt and singing it theirself. I know what it was when I first went to work just bring that cutted coal and didn't differ it if took us 'til eleven o'clock that night. Bring that coal or bring your tools either one you want. They don't know nothing about it. If these boys that's a driving these trucks and hauling this coal knowed what us old ones had to go through with you couldn't get one of them in that truck. Well you know I know you've heard you daddy or your parents talk about it the old man John L. Lewis organized the union. Now honey if John L. Lewis had been a living we would be be in the shape we're in now. When he...them companies knowed when John L. told them what he wanted that it be no working going on 'til it was got. But the only thing the union does is the worse mistake in my mind, is two things, one of them they always ask for a raise. Well before they got their first pay day the groceries had done went up more than their raise was. That was one bad mistake, the other bad mistake was that if a man wasn't work they wouldn't let the company fire him. They backed him. So that's why their having such a time right now. And me and you a running a job we had people working for us and we couldn't have no say and somebody lazy and wouldn't work fer us and we couldn't get rid of him why he's just a dead beat and first thing you know me and you are gonna be in the hole ourselves...right.

B: Right.

TB: But if the union would have let the company a fired a feller that wouldn't work and not a ask for all this big money ask for more benefits and just forgot about because the money, when they got a raise it didn't help them a bit because the groceries went up before they got their first pay day. We'd a been a thousand times better off.

B: That's true.

TB: Cause you know the higher wages is, the higher groceries gonna be. You know that. So when back when they was getting thirty-five forty dollars a day if they'd a stopped right there and ask for benefits everybody would have belonged to the union there wouldn't have been no argument about it.

B: Um-hum. That's true.

TB: But honey you can run anything in the ground, don't care what it is.

B: Well thank you for talking to me this evening I really appreciate it...

TB: Well there's one thing you can tell them, that the old man... the old Baptists that we believe that Christ done just exactly what he come here to do. Paul said, "this is a true saying and worthy of life exceptations". Worthy for me and you a being the truth. That Christs came into the world to save sinners. Not to offer to save them but to save them. And you can tell them the old man believes when he bowed his head on Calvary and said it's finished I believe he finished.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection