Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Rufus Starr Interview

John Hennen: This is Thursday, June 8, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Rufus Starr at his home in Blackberry City.

J: Alright, Mr. Starr would you tell me your complete name, when and where you were born, please?

Rufus Starr: Rufus Starr. Rufus F. Starr. Uh...born at Thacker, West Virginia.

J: In what year?

RS: 1914. December the sixth.

J: What were your parents' names?

RS: Sam...Samuel Starr and Mary Brewer Starr she...her...uh...she was a Brewer from down here at Marrowbone. Her family name is Brewer.

J: Any relation to Isaac Brewer?

RS: Yeah. Yeah.

J: Sister?

RS: Uh...let's see. Yeah, he was her brother.

J: Is that right?

RS: Uh...how...where...how'd you know Isaac?

J: Well, I'm familiar with uh...with some of the local people.

RS: Oh. Are you?

J: He was real heavy into the union. (Several people attribute the first shot in the Massacre to Isaac Brewer)

RS: Yeah. That's right...that's right.

J: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

RS: They was ten in our family. Five and Five.

J: And where did you stand in the age distribution, there?

RS: I'm next to the...I'm the third one from the bottom...third one from the youngest...uh...I got one brother older than me, and one living, and one...sister younger than me that's still living.

J: Do they live in this area or outside of the area?

RS: No. Uh...my sister, Geraldine, lives in Arizona and Carlos he lives in Cape Cod...and uh...this time of the year...in the winter, he goes down to Florida and stays.

J: What uh...kind of occupation were your parents involved in?

RS: Same thing I done. Coalmining. (Laughter)

J: Your father was a lifelong miner?

RS: Uh...yeah uh...yeah, he used to tell me about loggin' timbers to...from down Kermit, Warfield to Louisa. I reckon that's the first work he ever done. Then he worked in the mines, and worked in the mines until he got killed.

J: Was he killed in a mine accident?

RS: He was electrocuted up at Red Jacket Junior. He got in a high voltage wire.

J: While he was working?

RS: Uh...yeah. He was working on uh...I reckon he was a working in...on a in a water hole on the wire side of the tracks. I don't know whether he was putting a wire back up that fell out of a hanger, or what. But he...they was...they was in water and he got into the two hundred and fifty volts of DC and he had a big burnt spot on...on his forehead and on the bottom of both feet, where he got into the wires.

J: Do you recall the year?

RS: 1930...1930...

J: So you were sixteen years old, approximately at that time?

RS: I was uh...I know I was supposed to have been about a freshman in high school, but I quit there for a time then.

J: You quit after your father was killed?

RS: Yeah. And Glen Taylor got me to come back to school.

J: Was he the principal?

RS: No. He was coach. (Laughter)

J: Oh. A coach?

RS: Yeah.

J: What did he coach?

RS: Football and basketball; and he was all-around coach. Baseball.

J: So, was he interested in your athletic ability, and caused... back in school?

RS: Yeah...yeah...yeah...he was...he got me a job...he got me a job and...uh...got me clothes and books, to go to school on.

J: And then, did you play sports when you went back to school?

RS: Oh, Yes. yeah...yeah.

J: What all did you play?

RS: Well I played basketball and football, baseball, and track, everything.

J: What schools did you compete against uh...from the area?

RS: Oh, the same ones, just about the same ones they compete against today. We usually had uh...uh...ten to...ten to twelve games a season...football, and uh...a little more than that in basketball and we competed against Man, Logan and Williamson, down here and Chattaroy at that time. They had a high school down there, then.

J: Um-hum.

RS: And uh...uh...Belfry, I don't believe they had...when I was going to school I don't believe they had football and basketball. They might have had basketball. Now, but we didn't...we didn't play against them.

J: Where did the...

RS: Delbarton, over here and...

J: Where did the coach find you a job to, to help out?

RS: Well uh...first he...you know...how they got these little leagues now...they got people to organize these little league teams, well he got me a head job taking care of uh...the sports equipment and everything and the Board of Education furnished the gloves and bats and the balls and whatever we needed and uh...it didn't pay nothing hardly...it was something...when you didn't have nothing, it was something. (Laughter)

J: Well, those were pretty hard times, I guess in the area?

RS: Oh...oh...yeah...yeah real hard times well I tell you uh... (Laughter)...it was, after my daddy died...it was really rough and they uh...the company didn't pay a dime compensation. They got the doctors we had two doctors that said he got electrocuted and, uh...Dr. Hodge and Doc Smith, and the undertaker all said he was electrocuted and, uh...the company bought one of the doctors off and put him...got him to swear with their doctor that he died of a heart attack.

J: Uh-huh.

RS: So, uh...that...that knocked my mother out of compensation, you see.

J: So the company wasn't liable, therefore, because of what the doctor...

RS: That's what they ruled. That's the way they ruled.

J: Do you recall the name of their doctor? The company doctor?

RS: I believe it was Cummings. I believe.

J: Cummings?

RS: I believe.

J: And what company was this?

RS: Ritter. Uh...Ritter Coal Company.

J: Now in 1930, then, there was no union in the mines here. Is that correct?

RS: No. No the union didn't comin' until about 'thirty-four or 'thirty-five...uh...after Roosevelt got in.

J: Was your father...

RS: He give us uh...he give the people the right to have uh...collective bargaining and union representation if they voted for it, and when they voted for it, why, the company had to recognize it or sell out one; but they 're not doing that now, you see. They're not recognizing a man's vote on collective bargaining and union representation and they won't prosecute the coal companies for ignoring that law. Uh...Massey would of course, he had to pay a lot of fines, there...he had to pay a lot of back pay but uh... still, just like this over here now, if the law...if the law would be pair, what they're doing to these men, putting them in jail... they'd also put the company officials in jail for violating the law of taking the food out of them children's mouths of the miners. They uh...they're obligated because those men voted for collective bargaining and union representation and the company is not giving it to them. They are breaking the law same as...the pickets are not breaking the law, I don't reckon, except the judges are ruling now that Massey picketing is illegal, but it is not in the real lawbooks, but it's in their imaginary, with the coal operators,... it's in their imaginary thinking of the law, but they never touch the operator for depriving the working man, what his children is supposed to get from the standards of living from collective bargaining and union representation. They never prosecuted them.

J: Do you see any similarities between the situation today and the situation in 1920?

RS: It's the same thing.

J: I assume your father was on strike at that time.

RS: Yeah. Same thing. It's the same thing and, and governors... they all go right in and give the company protection and give their non-union employees protection and let 'em work, and let us...let the union men starve and starve them back into work.

J: Tell me about that strike in 1920 and your father's involvement and how it affected your family.

RS: Well uh...it, of course, it deprived us, but we farmed and we raised...we...we didn't starve but we...we...this whole area, around her and over on the hill, we farmed.

J: And did...here in Blackberry City.

RS: Right here. And uh...and we...we made it...we made it barely, by the skin of our teeth but uh...it was rough...it was...well, I tell you what, now, like I say, after my father got killed, I was going to school, and uh...you get a bottle of pop and a hotdog for a dime, and I had to walk home to get something to eat.

J: Couldn't afford the hotdog...

RS: The dime....the dime. That's how rough it was for moneywise, but, of course we had potatoes and we had uh...everything like that. We had canned stuff and uh...we had everything to survive on except the nonessentials. (Laughing)

J: During the 1920's strike, you mentioned earlier that the union helped out as best it could with food.

RS: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah they brought...they brought food in uh...here to these people in the tents. You see, we didn't live in company property and they shot us and we had to leave home. Couldn't even...couldn't even milk the cow up here on top of the hill.

J: But your parents owned this property where this house is sitting?

RS: Yeah...Yeah. Un-huh. Yeah and...they uh...it wasn't safe and we got my brother-in-law, he brought the state police up here, and they come up Magnolia Holler there and...and come up here at that side of the house and got under the house. Right here it wasn't underpinned then and they shot at the Baldwin-Felts thugs over..over there at McCarr.

J: Across the river?

RS: Yeah.

J: Now this was your brother-in-law, Ed Chambers.

RS: Yeah. That's...that's Ed. Yeah. Yeah. He brought them up here, you know, after he found out that they was shooting...shooting us out of our place...out of our house and they of course, they was shooting at people in tents too, you see, they uh...they meant to get rid of the union men. That's what the whole thing was all about...just like uh...they's four hundred union men that Massey won't hire here they...he won't hire them back. He paid them uh...some lost time...money...I think forty thousand dollars. They was supposed to got that much but, I don't think they did and relinquished their rights to employment. And uh...they...I know several of them, right around...right around here that's...of course there is a whole lot right over here in Pike County but, right around here there's a whole lot too that never has worked a day since then and their...their blackballed, nobody else won't hire them...when they find out that Massey won't hire them, they won't hire them, you see.

J: Was there blacklisting that went on back in the twenties, also?

RS: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes sir.

J: And A. T. Massey.

RS: See, they brought these people in from Georgia. They's a lot of them right around here now and New York, foreigners, they took our coal...our daddy's jobs at the mines uh...they's some of them still...still living there at uh...was brought in during the twenty...twenty one strike that took...took the union men's job. Just like there is right now. Hundreds of them right here in this valley uh...brought in from Virginia, Charleston, West Virginia, anywhere they can find high unemployment rates and they can bring them in, you see.

J: When the strikebreakers were brought in, how did the company presume to protect them? Is that where the Baldwin-Felts comes in?

RS: Yeah and the state police, see, the state police guards them and protects them, lets them go to work through the picket line uh...they say the state police helped us, but they didn't help us, they hurt us. They... of course, I was fortunate. I've always held a pretty good job, why, I went ahead and graduated from school, of course, I went to work for a coal operator quick as I got out of school, over at Logan at Ritter. Logan County.

J: When...when was this. About 1932?

RS: 1935.

J: 1935. Okay.

RS: Thirty...thirty-four...Thirty-four or thirty-five.

J: And was the...was the union established by that time?

RS: Just a starting back just startin' back. It was very...very thin then but, they was...they was recognition there and whenever he...when Roosevelt got this law passed through that would..they had to have...when the men voted for collective bargaining and union representation...and compulsory arbitration, you see, that's in the law too, but the...these lawyers and judges, they isn't a chance for a union man a gettin' any recognition through the laws that were passed during...and they's never been taken off the book through legislation. It's been taken off through negligence of the, judge to enforce the law...that's uh...if...if they would enforce the law and punish them for not giving them...collective bargaining and a contract and uh...not take the food out of the children's mouth. If the judges would do that, then, I'd say, we have equal, legis...-uh...I mean judicial recognition.

J: So the... what you're...by what you're saying the law enforcement agencies were not neutral when it came to strikes. They more often came down onto the side of the company.

RS: That's right...That's right. Just like every judge, this one right down here in Mingo County, and every judge in this southern part of this country and western part of Virginia and eastern Kentucky, they all sold out to the coal operators and uh...you can't win a case if you do it'll take you four to five years. Now see, Massey..It took Massey there four years to have to pay them men he knocked out of work but, still in the meantime, he's still got his scabs in there, see, union busters and uh...working right beside of them for a...less money on the day and no uh...they ignore the safety...the other day I asked one of the boys down there I said, "Uh...How...How long has it been since your safety committees made a run of the mines?" He said. "What are you talking about, "he said, "We don't have no safety committee." I said "well uh...how many"...I said, "I know you got violations." I said "who reports them violations and gets them corrected." "He said, "they don't; if the federal man comes around and he's not bought off, why, they do," but he said "most of them and the state is bought off. Well, just like the state police own these trucks here. The law says you have to keep your car or truck, vehicle under control, see. But when you can't stop a vehicle, you ain't got it under control. But these state police, one of them, he never told me but he told a friend of mine he said, "I've got orders not to touch or say anything to truck uh...drivers." Just yesterday... just yesterday...one pulled in at this carryout place same time I did. This truck driver? Went in bought a bottle of wine, went out, got in his truck, and drove on off. I, you see.. that's against the law and it happens right here...down at Maynard's place. Call it Collins Carry Out. It's Maynard's, what it is uh...he's got a carry-out there and they come in there and get their beer and liquor. Now he don't have wine, he just has beer. But they... they...get it, put it in the truck and go on. Them people has never had a physical examination and uh...ninety-five percent well, ninety-nine percent of the truck drivers that's driving on these roads around us,..and the people they're killing never uh...they... they've never had a medical examination when they went to work or nothing to know what their background is or what their conditions are or uh...they never took a written test on driving so... (Laughter)

J: Shows a lot of...lot of influence from the companies.

RS: Huh?

J: Lot of influence by the companies over law enforcement...?

RS: They control it. That's the...I call it "Massey, Maynard, and Moore Highway." That's what it is.

J: Now Massey, Morgan Massey is second generation coal operator, right?

RS: Yeah.

J: His daddy was...

RS: His daddy was too.

J: And that was A. T. Massey.

RS: A. T. Massey.

J: When did he come to this area?

RS: THat's the name of the company, A. T., that's his daddy's name.

J: Un-hun.

RS: Yeah.

J: Do you know when he started doing business around here?

RS: Well, the only time I ever knowed of him was when...he was down at Chattaroy in that vicinity for a while. Now, you see, I didn't know it, of course I was too young at that time, but later on I got fourteen and fifteen years old...they told me that uh... Massey...Massey had an operation down at Chattaroy. He went in N&W Railroad, I believe, now..they had a mine down there, N&W Railroad did. He got a lease off of them uh...tract of land. That's what I heard, now. And uh...they uh...I believe the union run him out, though. (Laughter) I don't believe he stayed.

J: Now um...drop back again. Was...now, your sister Sally was married to Ed Chambers. One of the leaders of the union in the twenties?

RS: Yeah...yeah.

J: How much older than you was Sally?

RS: She's uh...the oldest one in the family and uh...uh...I forget now, but I believe she was about thirty years, about twenty-five years older than me. I believe. She was uh...married, and had a daughter that was uh...I believe about a year or two older than me.

J: Was this a daughter...was this when she was married to Ed or was this...earlier?

RS: No...no. Uh...she uh...she married uh...a fellow before she married Ed and had this daughter uh...what was his name, now? I don't know. His picture's around here somewhere, I...

J: A picture of her first husband?

RS: Uh...yeah..but I can't remember his name now.

J: Did Sally ever discuss Ed's work with the union, that you recall, when you were...when you were a young boy?

RS: Well, only thing is you see, he was in with the law and uh...his daddy...Reece Chambers, they was in with the union uh..and the...all the Chambers' was in with the union uh...old man uh... Broggs, and E.B., uh...they..they..they was stuck with the union uh...I know uh...Isaac Brewer and some of them..they..older brother Noah...uh...he's dead a now. They got..got guns and ammunition from uh...Chambers Hardware down there, you see,uh...Broggs... old Broggs...old man Broggs and E.B., one founder of the bank... they went..they was in business there and 'course, E. B. quit the store business and went into the bank in business, but uh. They always favored the union and he...he was..he uh...a city law down there.

J: Ed was?

RS: Yeah.

J: So was he a deputy for uh....

RS: He worked an under...he worked an under for uh...uh...they was two of them and they worked... Sid...him and Sid Hatfield was the law in Matewan and, of course the law was a goin' with the union down there and uh... that fellow, Testerman, he was the mayor uh...them was..they was the law in Matewan. Testerman, Sid Hatfield, and uh..Ed Chambers.

J: Do you recall ever meeting Sid Hatfield, seeing him around?

RS: Well uh...Yeah. He's uh..he's...I know...I know Ed.. of course, Ed used to come to our house all the time.

J: What sort of a guy was he?

RS: He was a nice fellow... he's a nice fellow. He really was... uh...He had a nice disposition and friendly and uh...uh...uh... always give me a piece of chewing gum (laughing) I was just a small boy, you know. But uh...uh...but he uh...he come whenever they uh...see they lived downtown.

RS: Alright. When they lived downtown, and uh..but uh...whenever uh...Carlos or Noah or some of my older brothers went down and told them that they was shootin' into our house and we had to leave it and go over into the holler then uh...uh...him and the state police came up here and started uh...getting...shooting...getting Baldwin-Felts out of that mess over there...or wherever they uh...he uh... See they had to be at a place where they could shoot anywhere here, so it had to be they was uh uh....a track around the hill right above the store over there that come across the bridge, come across the river here on a....a big high bridge and dumped the coal on the West Virginia side and loaded in railroad cars. That's the way they used to mine the coal from Freeburn, I mean uh...from New Alla (Coal Company) and uh...and over here at McCarr, they brought it across that bridge and dumped it in the railroad cars on the West Virginia side.

J: Okay.

RS: They used that uh...bridge...it was up high, you see, it was up level with...just about with this hill here, you see.

J: Un-hun.

RS: They could shoot from it over here. That's...that's where we go the uh...the uh...bullets from was over there at McCarr. Auburn Coal Company. Uh...when they was uh..and of course they later on... they went up on ...up on top of the mountain there and shot from them big rocks up there. Used them for...to get behind, you know... to shoot at people down here. Of course, the uh...we was safe over there until state police run them away from over here, from shooting into private property. See this, remember this here wasn't company property.

J: Right.

RS: And uh...then they took us out of this barn down here...we lived in our barn...my daddy's barn, there was four or five families uh...Evelynn Phillips, and you talking about Hiram Phillips? Now they, they ...they used our barn, too until they took us out and took us up uh...Magnolia Holler here and uh...we slept in uh... old man Ambrose Gooslin's house. Slept in the floor. He...he let us...he let us all come up there.

J: All these families that you're talking about?

RS: Yeah. Yeah.. They's four uh.,...four families I'm...four or five...I..I don't know uh...about..I know they's four of them.

J: Do you remember the other names besides the Phillips?

RS: Phillips' and uh...I...I believe uh...Ethel ...I believe uh... Ben Mounts, he wasn't over there but his uh...his uh...wife and uh...children were, by her first husband, uh...Lambert uh...Ethel Lambert was her name, but she...in the meantime..she married Ben Mounts. Ben Mounts was uh..he was in on the right here he is, here in this picture.

J: Um-hum. He was one of the defendants?

RS: Yeah. He...he was one of the right there.

J: Un-hun.

RS: That fellow right there. (pointing) Chew tobaccer in his mouth. He always had a chew tobaccer in his mouth.

J: Ben Mounts did?

RS: Yeah. Would you want a cup of coffee, or something. (tape cuts off).

J: So all these families who had been living in the barn went to Mr. Gooslin's house?

RS: Yeah. Un-hun.

J: Do you remember, approximately, how long you had to stay away from your house?

RS: I don't know. I believe it was about two weeks uh..well as I remember now. Uh...It was until things got settled down after the massacre down here

J: So while you were out of your house, that's when the massacre occurred.

RS: Well, it's right at that time. I don't know uh...whether the massacre was right before or in..in..in the meantime...what time we was moved out...but it was right in in that time. Excuse me. It was right in that time. Uh...you got my burp in on that, didn't you? (laughing)

J: That's alright. (Laughter)

RS: Oh. Me. And you got that explanation of the burp, didn't you?

J: Yeah. Do you remember, yes, do you remember the day the massacre happened. The shooting...

RS: I...I...remember them uh...uh...brothers all of them coming up telling about loading them in uh...loading them. Baldwin-Felts men in the trains, in the baggage car. I remember them coming up and uh...uh...see they had to come...they had to come up here...up Magnolia Holler and walk up the hill here. Couldn't come up this front way uh...to the house. They had to come up uh...uh...Magnolia Holler here.

J: Un-Hun.

RS: They had to come up Magnolia Holler and uh...come up the hill, here, and they was uh...by brother, Carlos, the one that lives up Cape Cod. He...he was telling me...he'd tell me and then uh...uh... my daddy uh..and Noah, they...uh...all knew about it, you see, down there at the...at the day they had the massacre.

J: Were they down in town when the massacre happened?

RS: Well, now Isaac, Isaac and uh...Isaac and Noah was down there. My daddy wasn't down there at that time, I don't believe.

J: Was this Isaac a brother of yours? Oh, this is Isaac Brewer.

RS: No. He's...he's a Brewer. He's my mother's brother uh...he uh...he was there and uh...I don't know whether...I had another uncle uh...lived right down there uh...right below us here uh...I don't know whether he was or not uh...but, anyway, they...they wasn't working and they wasn't at home. That's the way...they was participating in uh...in uh... in trying to get the union to be uh...recognized.

J: Un-huh

RS: And uh...they...of course it's just like now, they're out participating in some way and uh...in picketing or...or uh...slowing down production or whatever you want to call it.

J: Do you recall much of the atmosphere around Matewan when the trial was going on in Williamson, the defendants in the...in the massacre?

RS: Uh...only thing is I know when ever my brother...my brother-in-law and my sister went up to Welch...I remember that.

J: Okay.

RS: And uh...uh...I remember they uh...and I remember...uh...John Collins and a whole bunch uh...of this fellow here, Ben Mounts, too. Uh...they were defended down here uh...uh...by uh...that's... that lawyer, Houston, he's, defend 'em down here, you see. But he didn't defend them when that judge up there wouldn't, at McDowell County, wouldn't allow them uh...uh...the Houston, Harold Houston, to uh...to uh...come up there, you see, in McDowell County.

J: Oh, he wouldn't let Houston in on that?

RS: No. Huh-uh. They...that was premeditated murder,there.

J: Oh I see. Kept...kept Houston away from Sid and Ed when they went to McDowell County.

RS: Yeah. Uh...but they...he defended all the rest of them down here in Mingo County uh...uh...John Collins, old man John Collins, uh...this Johnny...Johnny three (It's Johhny Collins, III and everyone calls him Johnny three) grandaddy?

J: Um-hum. I met him last week.

RS: Johnny Three?

J: Johnny Three. Uh-huh.

RS: Did you?

J: Yeah.

J: Well, I know his daddy was uh....he was an officer in the union, too. And uh...took a very active part in the strike and trying to uh...keep the union uh...the...the territory organized, you see. Union representation. But uh...he...like I say, they uh...the strikebreakers that was brought in from Georgia and New York, wherever they had a surplus of labor, they could hire them to come in here and give them a place to live and uh...a job, you see uh...that's what busted the union and uh...and then the state police protected them and let them work, you see.

J: Um-hum.

RS: And uh...uh...

J: Now the shooting of Sid and Ed in McDowell County, you said was premeditated. What were the circumstances around that?

RS: Well uh...uh...they would uh,..the people on the jury uh..they was interviewed, just like they are and most important cases the jury man are interviewed and if they didn't, if they didn't favor uh...Lively's uh...story...if they didn't favor him...they didn't get to sit on the jury.

J: This was C. E. Lively?

RS: C. E. Lively. Yeah. uh..he...he controlled the judge...they really controlled the judge and all of them up the in McDowell County uh...and uh...he...he got the judge to even make Isaac, I mean Ed uh...and Sid uh...put their guns in their suitcases. They couldn't have them on them and uh...uh...when they walked up the steps, why, one was on one side of the door of the courthouse and uh...on the other and they opened up fire on Sid and Ed both. Now my sister, she...she uh... she beat her umbrella...she ruined her umbrella beating it over uh...uh...C. E. Lively's head. It was... he was the one on Ed's side of the door a shootin'. He's one that killed Ed uh..she uh...she beat him over the head with her umbrell- umbreller uh...after he kept on shooting him uh...It's wonder he hadn't shot her but (Laughter). They uh...they uh...really, it was a made up deal but uh...that they'd never go to court. They'd be killed for uh...killing these people down here.

J: Was the Sheriff of McDowell County involved in that or...

RS: Yes, sir. He was right in with the..with the uh...coal operators. Baldwin-Felts thugs. They uh...he uh...all of McDowell County sheriff, judge and all of them was with them.

J: Did you go...attend Sid and Ed's funeral?

RS: Well, I...I'd say I attended the...I...I can't remember now, but I believe that...I believe we all...we all went to the funeral. All of the whole family. From the smallest on up...I had a brother and a sister younger than me and uh...I...I remember the uh..of course I've been to the graveyard over there for many a funeral... but I know we went to that one uh...of uh... Ed's and Sid's. They were both buried same time over there and right close to each other, too.

J: Now. Sally later married Harold Houston. Is that correct?

RS: Yeah. Yeah. She uh...she uh...after he was working..see, she was...she was interested in the union as much as any of them was and she uh...she helped them...she helped them in trying the cases down here of all them men, you see, they was a bunch of them that was uh..uh...that they uh..had to represent and keep from going to jail. Uh...and uh...she worked with uh...uh..the lawyer, Harold Houston...later she married him. Uh...until they...until they prosecuted uh...'til they cleared up all these...Johnny Three's daddy was one of them and old man Ben here why Isaac Brewer (charges against Brewer were dropped when he testified for prosecution) was another one and they all was involved heavily in that enough to be indicted, you see, and uh..they had to have representation and he represented all of the union men here in Mingo County. And I don't know, I guess he did Logan County, too. I'm not sure. Kanawha County, but I know he was a union lawyer...Yeah uh...and then she would uh...she uh...went to work for a lawyer Houston over in his office, then later on she...she married him.

J: Was his office in Charleston?

RS: Charleston. Yeah. Yeah she uh...he give her a job over in his office uh...because uh... she was uh..familiar with the hundreds of cases that he was handling and uh...uh...she didn't... later on she, she married him but uh...why he..he was a good lawyer, now uh..for uh...laborin' man uh...uh...and, of course I guess he was pretty well known in uh...the judicial system of the state and everything and of the union and Mother Jones and (laughing)...

J: He knew them all.

RS: Well, yeah. It was in that area at the time, you see, uh... when Mother Jones was really organizer of the union, uh...

J: Uh-huh. How long did Houston Live. Up until the forties? Is that when he died?

RS: Uh...yeah, I believe it was uh...up in forty.. forty-one or forty-two. Somewhere out along in there, I believe, when he died.

J: Did Sally, uh...remarry again after his death?

RS: Oh. Yeah,. She remarried a couple of times. Yeah. She had uh ...she had uh...two husbands I reckon after that. One...one uh... both of them was Italian names uh... Robbie... Robbie was one of them, I believe. They were Italian descent uh...uh...and I can't remember the other ones name uh...

J: She lived up until about 1980, I understand, or later, I guess, didn't she? Did she ever discuss the events of the uh...the union organizing days with you?

RS: Uh...yeah. She always said that they was uh...no justice in the judicial system for the working people in West Virginia they're...I mean...she meant that...if they didn't...if they didn't fight for their rights, they'd never get justice. (Tape went off)

J: Uh...for some reason, uh...I went to another tape to complete this interview. This interview is on the first side of the next tape.

J: Okay.

RS: And that's the way, and I find out that she's right...if you don't... if...if...if the working man doesn't stand up and fight for his uh..uh...rights in the...in the labor movement, today, uh he will end up with uh...uh....he will end up just like it is now with a poor standard of living and uh...uh...no, or no medical benefits or anything and that what's happened right now. They... -...they, I've got son-in-law's a working cut...cut wages, way below the average what the union mines are getting and they...they don't have no hospitalization. They have to buy their own hospitalization and uh...the union uh...contract companies furnished hospitalization, you see, for miners and their families. But that's, that's the wonderful thing, is hospitalization for the family and but uh.. ..that's one thing that the company don't like about the union, you see, uh...they say the union makes it too expensive...to uh...to operate so uh...now...uh...the...the federal government, if you work for them, and if you work for the company uh...company employee, you get medical benefits, but the working man, pick and shovel man, they didn't want to give him and his family no medical benefits.

J: When you went into the mines was it still...was it pick and shovel mining at that time?

RS: Yeah...yeah. 19...1930...35. Of course hit was just beginning to go mechanized uh...in uh thirty-five and they had a few of the old...old type of mechanical loading devices but lots of it, well, where I worked, ninety percent of it was uh...hand loaded.

J: Um-hum.

RS: Over at Ritter, Logan Chilton Coal Company (coughs) Now, that man, that hired,, that got me that job over there, I was going to join the navy when I graduated and...and he said "no," he says, "don't do that. I'll get you a job." He liked me. The superintendent over here.

J: What was his name?

RS: Bill Hellmentoller. Uh...he said, "aw"...he said "don't join the navy"...he said, "I'll get you a job" and he got me job over there and started me out at Logan Chilton Coal Company but they...I got along good with them and...and I worked there uh....in the post office and payroll for three or four years and uh...then that place burnt out. The head house and temple burnt out and then I they... they uh...transferred me up to Roseanne, Virginia, uh...and I worked.. I started working in the mines up there and that's when I started inside the mines, was up there at Roseanne. I worked there until they got the temple built back over here and they started running coal over here again. But uh...I never did go back into the...the payroll office uh..I stayed in the mines.

J: Stayed in the mines. How long did you work?

RS: I worked uh...four uh...I was in the coal industry from day one until I quit uh...except for what time I was in the service. In oh what, in the Pacific uh...uh..forty uh...eighty uh...thirty-five to uh...eighty-one, I started in August of thirty-five and uh...quit in August of eighty-one.

J: What branch of the service were you in during the war?

RS: I was in the Navy.

J: Navy.

RS: Navy. Navy Seabees.

J: Oh. Is that right?

RS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I volunteered uh...I volunteered and went into service that uh...superintendent up here, Fred Cook, he uh... he sort of made me mad when uh..one day, he said well, he, come around and he said, "why Rufus", says "I got your name off of the board down there, and you won't have to go into the service." He says uh.."you can say I helped you out uh....by keeping you out of the service" and I said, "well, you didn't have to do that", I said "I...I don't think they was gonna take me, no way", I had one child and uh...another on the way and uh...he said "well I was on the draft board he said, I can send you or I can keep you." So I just went down and enlisted uh...in the Navy Seabees and went...to the Pacific. I was on several-...several islands but ended up on Saipan.

J: In service, about what, three years?

RS: Yeah uh.. Not quite three years but I went from seaman to first class storekeeper, first class petty officer, what time I was in there now, that's moving along.

J: That is. That's a pretty rapid clip.

RS: In short time. (Laughter) It's hard to make that uh..many uh..ratings uh..in that short of time.

J: Did you consider, at all, not uh...like staying in the service, or were you determined to get back home?

RS: No uh.. I just signed up for duration and six months. Course it didn't go...it didn't go quite that six months uh...I got out in forty uh...in December of 'forty-five. That's when I was dis-charged.

J: I know that you were uh...you were an athlete when you were younger, did you play any ball for the coal company teams?

RS: Yeah uh...see...we was in the coalfield league here, but course uh...Red Jacket had their own team up there. We played their team and Matewan had a little team down here, you see.

J: What did you call yourselves? Do you remember?

RS: Matewan uh...uh...just uh...Matewan Baseball Club and we had...we had a good team, of course uh..Red Jacket and N & W and Pond Creek, now they...they went out and brought in scouted, got good ball players come in here.

J: What would they do, give them jobs and bring them in?

RS: Yeah. They'd give them jobs, outside jobs. Yeah uh...they's one that played down here at N & W er uh...no, it wasn't N & W, it was uh...called Williamson, but N & W sponsored it. Mines down at Williamson and Stan Musial, he uh..he...they got him down here. He played with them.

J: Yeah. He played ball in Williamson.

RS: Yeah. He was in the coalfields, he was in this coalfield league.

J: Oh. Is that the league he was in?

RS: Yeah.

J: And you played...you played...and your team in that league, also.

RS: Well, we played...yeah, we competed against uh...against uh...different ones uh...Louisa and Pond Creek over here and they uh, we had a pretty fair team not to have a big company backing us, you see.

J: So did you all sponsor yourself or did you get a ...

RS: Well, uh..they made up collections, you know, and bought... bought what equipment we had.

J: The town did this?

RS: The people donated in uh...and I guess uh...the board of education put in a little bit on it. (laughing).

J: Did they?

RS: Yeah. And uh...of course, that...that's a "no no"...to talk about...of course, they...the county....the county supports these little low clubs, now.

J: Yeah. They provide space for them and keep the field up.

RS: Yeah.

J: Where was your ball field?

RS: Well, uh...we had one uh...uh...where the supermarket is in Matewan. We played there. And uh...we had uh...one down uh... where the grade school is. We played there and uh...it was right behind the O'Brien, right in front of the O'Brien park. THat's where it used to be. That's were I played football, too. Uh...and uh...we had one over across the railroad...over across there at Buskirk...right below Buskirk there in the bottom. We used to play football, over there too, the high school did.

J: Now is that about where they're building that shopping center over there now?

RS: No. It...It's down below the bridge there.

J: Oh. I see.

RS: Uh...they was a good field down there and they uh...Matewan High School played football over there. My brother played football over there, now, but we played baseball over there later on.

J: Did many people come out to the games?

RS: Oh yeah. Yeah. We had...we had a pretty good game. We had uh...good attendance out for the games. Yeah. Yeah. Uh...I remember, last, the last football I played was against Man. Right down there where the grade school is now uh...uh...we had...we was unbeaten that year uh...

J: This was high school?

RS: Nobody crossed our goal line.

J: Nobody scored?

RS: Nobody scored on us. We had one scoreless tie, and that was Man. That was the last game I played.

J: Wow.

RS: Had uh...one scoreless game in that year and all the rest of them, nobody scored on us.

J: This was 1935?

RS: 1934, I believe. The season of thirty-four.

J: Was Glen Taylor still your coach?

RS: Yeah. Yeah.

J: Who were some of the other players on the team?

RS: Ernest Hatfield was one lives right down here. He used to be chief of police down here for years well he was...he was one of them uh.. and uh...John McCoy...uh...no, he done graduated that year. He...he done graduated. I believe he graduated in thirty-one. He was...he was a good athlete, the one that has his legs cut off, he was a good athlete and his brother, Bob, the one that died here, he...me and him played football together, Bob. Uh...Bob McCoy, John's brother, uh...but uh...I was on the second team when John was on the first team uh..I was trying to get on the first team but after he graduated, I made first team.

J: Of course, at that time, you played offense and defense?

RS: Oh, yeah. We went in and unless we got knocked out, we played he whole game.

J: What was your position?

RS: I was halfback. Yeah.

J: Fast?

RS: Yeah. Nobody faster. (Laughter)

J: Is that right? So...and you ran track, also?

RS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah they...they called me "Speed". Oh if I could get a foot or two ahead of somebody they wouldn't...they wouldn't catch me.

J: Couldn't catch you?

RS: Un-un.

J: Was there much passing at that time or was it mostly a running game?

RS: Yeah. There was quite a bit passing.

J: Is that right?

RS: Yeah. Yeah. We passed uh...we passed Glen Taylor, he...he believed in passing, and he always managed to make his...have his receivers, halfbacks and ends uh...capable of catchin' the ball. I tell you, I uh...one game uh...in the first five minutes of the first quarter, he sent me to the shower. He said, "you've done"... I'd done made three touchdowns.

J: Oh my goodness.(Laughing) Was this in that undefeated season? Was it that year?

RS: Yeah. It was the undefeated season.

J: So you really ran over some teams, then?

RS: Yeah. Yeah. They was some of them that uh..that uh...I don't know, they were just getting started..most of them now...most of them didn't...hadn't had football, around and uh...the children that went to the school transported...transported in and they didn't have no experience of playing ball uh...before they got in high school, you see. We had an advantage there, you see, we...we played all the time since we were little...little boys. We had the advantage of a...some of the schools where they haul the boys in from a long ways around and they didn't have no way of gettin' training for small children.

J: Now, when you'd out to play a team, did you ride the train?

RS: No, schoolbus.

J: You had schoolbuses?

RS: Yeah. Yeah.

J: How many games did you have that year? Do you remember? The undefeated year?

RS: I believe it was twelve, I'm not sure. I believe it was twelve.

J: Did you play in a tournament of any kind at the end of the year?

RS: Uh...no...no...we got beat our for...uh...Logan...Logan beat us out I believe. We didn't...we didn't make it to the. I don't know how they done that, but anyway, Glen Taylor...they outdone Glen Taylor on...we was supposed to went to the state playoff but, some way uh...these other schools, Man and Logan, beat us out.

J: Even though you didn't lose any games, you didn't get to play in the tournament?

RS: That's right.

J: Sounds like politics to me.

RS: Well, that's what I...that's what I say...He...they beat him out there, some way on that, but they got the honor of going for the playoffs. I don't know uh,..maybe it was 'cause it was some thing about the schools that we played.

J: Oh. I see.

RS: I believe...

J: Other words, they probably said the schools weren't high enough caliber to ...

RS: Yeah. I believe that was uh...the reason that we didn't get to.

J: How long did Glen Taylor stay around? He sounds like quite a guy. Oh he stayed here for uh...he died right down here. He uh... he uh...his wife died and then he married Bill Harris' widow. She was a schoolteacher uh...and uh...he...he's been dead about, about six years I guess, or eight. Uh...but he uh...uh...he really... really helped me through school.

J: Couple more questions. I know we've gone a long time and I appreciate it. Um. What position did you play in baseball. What was your favorite position?

RS: Catcher.

J: You were the catcher?

RS: Yeah. Yeah.

J: Hiram Phillips told me he was a catcher too. He used to play sandbar league, he told me.

RS: Sandbar league, yeah.

J: What is the sandbar league?

RS: Well that where you go, hey...this here...there used to be one right down there. That there uh...used to be all uh...it wasn't filled up like it is now. Uh...they was a big field down there in sandbar...that's like down there in Matewan. They filled that in there behind the jailhouse down there. Hey, that used to be a drop off right there behind the jail house a fifteen foot drop off, river bed. All the way up through there. Up there at the uh...where the Mingo Lum...lumber yard use to be. WHere them old carwashes are? That there used to be a drop off there, you see. About ten or fifteen feet down to the river bed but uh...and they put that fill in there and choked that river down. It can't, it can't flow no more. That's the reason you get a lot of the flood. Uh...Mate Creek just hits a stone wall there when it comes out, you see, and that all used to be river bed uh. All that in there.

J: So when the water was low, then you could play ball there?

RS: Yeah...yeah...yeah. They did. Yeah. They did. I never did play down there but, I've played down here and I played over across the river, over there, and played uh...where the grade school is now and uh...Montgomery Super Market where it is now.

J: Um-hum.

RS: We used to have a ball diamond there and uh...uh...its ...We always had to come up with a pretty good...pretty good ball club in football and baseball uh...uh...well you can't hardly beat a unscored on a team. (Laughter)

J: Nope. You can't do much better than that. Did pretty much the same boys play baseball that played football, or were, or were they some different guys?

RS: No. They wasn't many of them. They wasn't as many played baseball as they was played football because uh....they's not room for that many. uh...Yeah...you didn't have to have two teams of ballplayers and football you had to have two teams.

J: So you might only carry ten or twelve guys on your baseball team, I guess.

RS: Yeah. Yeah.

J: I meant to ask you earlier and I didn't, uh...When you got married and your wife's maiden name?

RS: Geraldine. Geraldine DeHart.

J: Oh. She's a DeHart?

RS: Un-huh.

J: And when were you all married?

RS: Uh...

J: Late thirties?

RS: When she graduated, we got married. Uh...thirty-six. In July of thirty-six. When we got married.

J: And how many children have you had?

RS: Three. three girls.

J: Three girls?

RS: Yeah.

J: Are they...do they still live in the area?

RS: Yeah. Doris Gwyn Hatfield, down there that works right next, below you there, you know that's got that...did have that restaurant and uh...the furniture store?

J: Oh. Okay. Un-huh.

RS: That's my daughter. And Jack Hatfields wife, and then one that lives right behind me here uh...daughter uh..O'Brien uh... Kenny O'Brien. She married him and uh...they got uh...uh...two twins. They got twins and uh...they are thirteen years old and she's got a new baby, five months old.

J: So you got some grandkids then?

RS: Oh. I got a lot of them, and most of them boys too. Uh...

J: Do they play ball?

RS: Oh yeah. Yeah. They uh...they got a game this evening uh...at 5:30.

J: Play, uh...Babe Senior League?

RS: No.

J: LIttle league?

RS: Little league down here yeah. At the schoolhouse uh...

J: So, do you go watch them play?

RS: Yeah. Usually if the weather...if the weather permits.

J: Yeah

RS: Yeah. If it's not too cold. Football is too cold and but uh...I usually, go, though and watch them.

J: Give them some pointers, huh?

RS: Oh yeah. Yeah I never will forget Jerry uh...Terry uh... Epling, one of my grandsons graduated uh...I went up to watch him play a game of football and uh...they was playing against Phelps up here, first game of the season, and they played Phelps and uh... Epling and uh...some of them...we was setting there, you know, and uh...I told them, I said "now, you see that number one", his number was number one, Chris Hatfield...Doris's boy...His number was number one and I said "now if that ball...if number One gets that ball", of course I wouldn't never do that again, uh..."he'll go for a touchdown." And I'm telling you the truth, he didn't move five feet either way, and he caught that ball and run for a touchdown. I said "now boys, I'm never going to make a statement like that again." I said "the Lord was with me this time and I appreciate it."

J: No use pushing your luck.

RS: I ain't gonna push my luck no more. (Laughing) My grandson made a touchdown on the kickoff and 'course I called another good call or two there and uh...for them but it wasn't touchdown calls, it was just first down calls. (Laughter)

J: That's the end of this interview.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection