Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Lawrence "Chicken" Smith Interview

John Hennen: Today is Wednesday, June 14th, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center oral history project. Preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Lawrence "Chicken" Smith of Delbarton, West Virginia. Sound check on mic two, June 14th, 1989. Interview with Lawrence "Chicken" Smith Delbarton, West Virginia. (Tape cuts off)

Lawrence Smith: (Is it) still working.

J: Yeah. Alright, Mr. Smith, we'll start out if you could tell me when and where you were born and something about your parents.

LS: Alright. I was born in Buckhannon County, Virginia.

J: Okay.

LS: Hurley, Virginia was the name of it...the name of the city. I mean it wasn't a city, just a small place. Nineteen hundred and fifteen, December the second.

J: Okay.

LS: And, uh...my grand...granddaddy's name was Hiram Martin Smith. So, uh...we came down here when I was about six, seven years old from Virginia.

J: You come down here with your parents? What were their names?

LS: My daddy's name was Solomon K. Smith and my mother's name was uh...Loui...Louisie or Louisa as they pronounce it that way Uh...Louise Ann Coleman and she married a Smith so that made her a Smith.

J: And, you moved...what...how come you moved from Virginia to this area?

LS: Well my dad worked in the mines. He was a...well he worked in about nearly every position they had. The miner..

J: Un-hun.

LS: I had never started school when I come down here. Matewan's the first place I went to school. And, they had uh...a school in the old building that's tore down now where Pearlie Epling had that garage.

J: Um-hum.

LS: He had a two-story wood frame school building there. And, then on one they called the primmer, they had it over across 'ere where them big bricks is they built recently, haven't they. And, then they had another 'ere, went from the fifth grade up fifth, sixth, and seventh, and eigth I beleive. Wudn't in the ninth, it was in the high school building which it was just kindly down below it and then they built another one. I was around when they built the gym and when they built that other school building...I think the gym...old school building's tore down, both of them. I was 'ere then and...course that's where I got what little learnin' I got.

J: That was in Matewan...at Matewan?

LS: Matewan. Yeah. It was called Magnolia High School...uh... Magnolia school then. I don't if they switched it back to that. It went as Matewan for a long time and then at first it was Magnolia when I started.

J: Did you all live in Matewan or close around?

LS: No, we lived down 'ere...we lived down 'ere when I started on old Greenway Hatfield's farm house. It was uh...one that they built back when they's buildin' a tunnel through 'ere. Puttin' that new tunnel through 'ere. About nineteen fourteen, I guess, it was when they put that tunnel through 'ere. We moved down 'ere in a little old shot gun uh...three room shot gun style, you know, like a shot gun. And, it was made out of rough lumber boards. It got awful cold back 'ere, you know. We got out 'ere and strip the cracks but they wore, you know, they still let air in. Had a big old, what we called a iron burnside heat stove. We'd keep that thing cherry red. One side would burn you just sit around...be a freezing. Kind of the way I was raised up. Kind of hard you know.

J: Did you cook on that stove also?

LS: No. We had coal cook stove then. And, we had oil lights for quite awhile and then they got some electricity comin' through and we got that. We moved from 'ere. I don't know exactly how many years but we moved from 'ere up into Matewan up 'ere where at the school house is 'ere now. They used to be a football park was there. I believe they got their park there above where the house we lived in a long time. It belonged to old man Ep Steele. We rented off of him. My dad did you know. I was still staying at home.

J: And, was your father still workin' in the mines at this time?

LS: Well, yeah. He worked in the mines and he worked...he was carpenter too, you know. He worked about anything he could hustle out of job. Back in Hoover's time, it was pretty hard to hustle. Some men say them. Course, the cost of living was down. You could buy uh...a lard about seven cents a pound and bacon about nine cents, you know, salt bacon and things like that. Pork chops would never run over fifteen cents a pound.

J: Um-hum.

LS: And, you could buy a whole hundred pound bag of potatoes for ninety-eight cents and also about...a bag of pinto beans if you got enough to get a hold of it. Why, it was about two dollars or run a little over...no tax. Kroger had a store in 'ere about that time.

J: Where was that store?

LS: Let's see, it was over there...a furniture store I believe was in Matewan. Its uh...about the first building up from the bank up 'ere. They's a barber shop in there. And, then the next one up I believe was the furniture...they got...might be flower store now...but anyhow Kroger's had a store right in 'ere. The old theater was down the next building where what's his name has a club there I think, right in there right where it was. And, maybe the old cafeteria building Ernestine Ruples or George after she married her maiden name was Ruples she married uh...Bill George.

J: Okay.

LS: And, uh...so uh...now I knew all them Hatfields when I was young like old man Dewey Hatfield his father's name was Roland Hatfield and they lived across the river on Kentucky side down below Matewan, but everybody did their business and everything in Matewan and so the first man had a drug store was uh...his name was uh...Bill Harris. And, I'm not sure George Leckie got it and I think that George Leckie operated that. And, I think that George married his daughter or somebody in the family, I think, was his daughter. And, uh...George run that for a many a years then he left here and I think he finally died, George did. I guess, all of 'em died I knowed all them Allara boys Frank, and uh...let's see he had a brother what was his name sometimes I forget names you know. Jack, I believe who Frank's brother was. I don't know if Frank's still livin' or not he was the president of Matewan Bank...

J: He's still living he's sick now.

LS: He's kindly old ain't he.

J: He's in his eighties and he had a stroke about a year ago. Did you have brothers and sisters?

LS: Yel, I got a brother that's still a living that's older than I am. He was uh...his name was Millard Smith he lived at Merrimac down 'ere. That's where my daddy and them finally bought 'em a place 'ere about the time I went in service. Bought 'em a place and built a house down in Merrimac. I was in the service I was in the Army Air Force. Went in uh...June...let's see I went in April 18, 1942 come out January 21, 1946 I was in the Air Force. We called that boy scouts. (Laughed)

J: Where were you stationed?

LS: I was over in South Pacific uh...spent a little time in the ? mountains over 'ere. In the state's I had several bases. I went to Texas once...several over there. Took two schools... let's see, took the radio mechanic...radio mechanic and also he you know what they put down in your ear drum. Took 'at, but I had a bad eardrum on this left side and I had to drop that part, they dropped me out that part. So, I served the country what, you know, where they put me...ask me when I went in up uh...had any choice I wanted to go...it was all new to me you know, I told 'em I didn't have any choices, put me where they want me. So, I didn't get no scratches or nothing I finally got me uh...got me some ulcers while I was in 'ere. Get ten percent disability now on then.

J: Now, you had...before you went in the service did you go to the high school?

LS: Yeah, but I didn't finish, I uh...well I'll tell ya I dropped out. I had a little controversial and then after they straightened it up they tried to get me to come back to school and I was workin' for Dewey Hatfield in the pool room and I wouldn't quit workin' I kept workin'.

J: So, you worked in that pool room then?

LS: Yeah, I worked in Dewey Hatfield's pool room for yers. Harry...Harry Nenni got it after Dewey went out of business, went out that kind and went in wholesale business for awhile. So, I know Grace, I reckon she's still livin', that was his wife, but I don't know what her maiden name was, but now she's right smart I think older than I am and she would probably been a good interview. She's smart, I saw her eatin' dinner down 'ere at uh... Charlie Montgomery's ain't been maybe last year.

J: Who all uh...who hung around at that pool room?

LS: Who and all? A lot of old hustlers uh...John Whitlock he used to come in 'ere...we'd shoot. Pearlie Epling he's dead now, he used to have the Chevrolet (car lot) down in Matewan. Pearlie he was an awful good shot. Sometimes these sharks would come in and take 'em all, you know, from out where they could really shoot. And, I racked pool down 'ere...I racked pool for Halse ? 'til he uh...sold out then I racked some for Harry Nenni. Harry got his ear cut off in a car wreck and he had him uh...you couldn't hardly tell it on just a little different color he got him one put back on. I don't know how they done it, but they did. I guess, now days they can put one...they could cut it off and sew it back on made it work.

J: These pool sharks that came in where did they come from?

LS: Well, they's some of 'em I forgot what some of their names was. But I was pretty good I could spot one of them pool sharks. And, I racked pool you know...I'd watch 'em how they handled their sticks and things. I never would (let them) hook me. I'd win a few dollars myself, but I wouldn't get a hold of none of them sharks. I'd get somebody I knowed I could beat. So, I used to be quiet a gambler, but I quit you know I mean I been quit 25 years. I wouldn't turn a card or wouldn't bet a bet no more.

J: Did you bet on in the pool room or on football, basketball games?

LS: We'd bet on 'bout any ole thing that come along back then, you know. We might see a couple of birds settin' and give a guy a bet which one would fly first.

J: (Laughing) Is that right.

LS: That's what you call gambling and I don't know I gave that up a long time ago uh...cause uh...I guess, I was kind of a crook.

J: Is that right. What do you mean?

LS: You know uh...slick fingered and if I got to settin' down and I was playing cards...I'd beat ya if my brother come and set down in 'ere. Anyway, I get it that's the way I was brought...I wudn't brought up that way, but that's the way I found out when I was in the Army.

J: Did ya ever get caught? Anybody ever catch ya?

LS: I used to do bottom deal and everything one two. I quit... I's afraid somebody would catch ya. This ole boy tried to get me to teach him what I could do...I wudn't do it. I said, "No you're to big. They'll kill you if they catch you." I said, "You're to awkward. I wudn't show ya a thing." And, I never would show nobody. But, see my hands all stiff I can't do that no more. I ain't been able to in a long time. But I really I quit I didn't want to. It seem me like that was just still stealin' somebody's money and, I guess, that's what it was. Like if you's in a poker game an' I was in 'ere, hey, if you put it in I'm gonna get it if I can.

J: Some people told me there used to be big card games in back of the bus station?

LS: They used to have uh...I think John McCoy might have run some, I never would set in on them. But, John you know uh...I don't know I reckon that he's still livin' he hadn't died the last time...

J: Yeah, he's still there.

LS: Uh...that was Robert's uncle. And, uh...well I knew them all even when uh...John and Bob was playin' football they's playin' on the line. I wudn't big enough then I was a little younger than them...I don't know how much, but a little younger. I got a late start school, I didn't start school 'til I was about nine years old. First time they uh...I wanted to go and they's give 'em this here vaccination back then. Everybody was scared of the small pox vaccination so, my daddy bucked on me takin' it. So, they wouldn't let me go to school that year...when I first come down. But then, the next year they didn't say nothing about vaccinatin' everybody. I went up to school and they had them swings and ocean waves and all of 'em they had in 'ere...twist ole chain around and that there thing and we all go around and man it was straighten you plum out 'ere. It wonder if we hadn't got killed if the chain had broke, but we'd do it. Oh, we had a ball I swear we did. And, playin' football I get down on that line it was hard for a big man to move me. I clock in about 140 pounds you know.

J: This is when you were in high school?

LS: That was when I was in high school, got in a little controversy. I made a mistake and hit the coach in the mouth.

J: Oh, is that right and that's why you left school? Who was the coach?

LS: Uh...Joe Hostetter it was suppost been one of the best. He was coachin' that team when we got that there undefeated season. See we only had to play ten games that year. They was six points scored right over the line and we scored 240.

J: What year was this?

LS: It was 1936, I believe it was 36 and uh...I quit out of school right then I was getting ineligible to play anyway. After my birthday come around. And, that's what I was going mostly up fer...was you know. Well, I did get a pretty good education, cause people that knew how their figuring the pencil. Most of the time, I could tell 'em what the answer is by not even having pencil and paper. Not bragging on myself, but I loved that kind of mathematics. Then I took everything, Physics, I took Algebra two years in that and I even started in uh...higher math which is kind of...well, I took Geometry all year of that. But this higher math I could take that. So, uh...I ended up not being nothing, but a block layer, masoner and a carpenter.

J: When did you start doing that work, carpenter work?

LS: After I come back out of service. You know, when you come back out of service I figure well I'll come out and work in the mines. But uh...shortly after I come out of service everything kind of went slow. You couldn't buy a job, cause, you know, the union was 'ere. And, if you was workin' a place the last one was hired was the ones first...left first, you know. And, if you go some'ere else try to find a job they's somebody on the panel waitin' for opening see. And, back then the union went that way. I don't what they do today, but they did I mean if you was on the panel you go around and say I got so many on a panel they all got to be hired 'fore we hire any new. So, the mines I was workin' worked out...we's up Thacker. And, I didn't have nothing to do, but build my own trade. So, I started at it.

J: So, you taught yourself the trade you didn't work for somebody else?

LS: That's right. I just picked up myself and somebody come along I see a stack of blocks I'd say, "Hey! what you gonna do with them blocks? "Gonna build something out of it". Uh..."You got anybody to build it." "You lay block?," "Yeah, tell me what you want built." I let him tell me, you know. So, naturally I was learnin' the trade see. Now, I'm...you're not gonna get enough when your learnin' the trade as somebody that's in the big contractors and things. It really stick to ya. Where they started out they was chargin' back then about .20 cents a block .25 for laying. I was layin' for .10 cents. Well, that was pretty good money back then. And, I'v laid as uh...most I ever laid I think about 460 in about six hours. That's movin' and I got in good shade too. But I picked that trade up. And, I also can do plumbing, do some mechanic. I fix my own car something happens to it and I do all my work. So, me and my daughter begin to put this in. My house had a few holes I didn't have quiet enough money to get all trim I needed...I was gonna pick it up later and ain't picked it up yet. But anyhow, this year if the Lord blesses me I'm gonna try to go around it with rock that I get out the creek all way around it...a rock pattern. I don't know if my health will let me do it or not, cause doctor's told me to take it easy. But hey, I don't pay no attention what the doctor's says noway.

J: How long have you been in this house?

LS: Uh...let's see uh...she might know exactly, but I'd say it's close to 18 years. We bought it off of...I forget who we bought it off of...we bought this house (unintelligible). Ella May you know how long we've had this house? Do you know how long we've bought this house. I don't know. (Daughter said, "Twenty years".)

J: Okay. Now did you continue uh...continue to work?

LS: Yeah, I worked until 1973...I's working for the E.O.C. And, they uh...kind of let me go. I'd worked 'bout...I think...when they started I was one of the first carpenters they hired. I was carpenter boss.

J: What does E.O.C. stand for?

LS: Economic uh.

J: Opportunity.

LS: Opportunity Commission. That's what it is.

J: Commission, okay.

LS: That was uh...when uh...Heuy Perry he was the first and then Larry took over.

J: Now Larry, that's Larry Hambrick?

LS: Uh-huh. You know the one they...I reckon they got him down 'ere for a few questions.

J: Now when did the E.O.C. get started in this neighborhood?

LS: Must of been 1966.

J: And, you were one of their first employees?

LS: Yeah, I was the second one that got hired down there. Uh... I was working for Matewan Lumber and Supply up 'ere, you know, deliverin' and workin' around whatever he needed. And, so he sent me down there to see about that job he'd heard something about it. He said, "Go put cha (you a) tie on and put your suit on and go down 'ere" and he said, "Now if you get you a job" he said, "I'm gonna let you go, but if you don't get a job you come back and work for me". That was Russell...the one that died you know had four-way bypass on his heart.

J: What was his full name Russell?

LS: Russell Varney, Russell H. Varney.

J: Okay.

LS: He's ole man Tom Varney's son...T.I's brother. I guess, you heard of T.I. Varney.

J: Oh, yeah.

LS: Everybody has. So, uh...I liked ole T.I. well, I liked all the Varney's and everything. And, uh...I think their both dead uh...Tom and his wife, Russell's dead and I think Mary Lou uh... she's probably still a livin' here.

J: Now, what was the purpose of the E.O.C.? What was it suppose to accomplish?

LS: Well, it was suppost to help the poor and the lower brackets...I mean people with low income and things like that. That's what it's for. It was set up to do that...and we did work, built, repair work and salvaged old buildings we tore down. And, the material that was usable we salvaged it. And, suppost to weed it out and the ones that needed it the most got to them first. That wudn't part of my job. I just went where they had it, you know, where you got your orders to go. And, I been on several jobs. I wouldn't know exactly what was first or last or anything. But you go accordin' to what they told you do... for if they say use this and build 'em a room back or something we do the best we could. We used to turn out pretty good work. Now the E.O.C. has uh... done work on that house right over 'ere, but that's after I got off the program see. They worked on that house I think about three times over 'ere. But uh...people that owned it then both of 'em are dead so uh...its uh...some other owners.

J: How did the people who were operating the E.O.C. working for the E.O.C. get along with the local political power structure?

LS: Well, at first I think they was kind of a struggle between them and some of the county men, you know, and political. But I don't think that lasted too awful long, because uh...you know you've got to work together through the politicians in order to get anything. If you start fightin' politicians you gonna be hurtin' when you start fightin' them. Of course we want to try to pick the best ones we can find to put in 'ere. Let me tell you something, the way I see it, you might pick a preacher, a really honest to God preacher and put him up 'ere and you put a bad apple with a barrel full of good apples and the first thing you know the whole barrel is rotten. So, you'll take uh...uh...a man that you would think the world of put him up in politics and he turns out not to be in to gooder shape. But to me I'd probably botch it up worse than that if I was up there so I don't have much comment on that part. I just do my thing and let everybody else do theirs.

J: Did that process you just described happen with the E.O.C. do you think?

LS: This what now?

J: Did that happen with the E.O.C.?

LS: On that? Well now, I really don't know, because I didn't have that part. I just had a crew man under me I go where the orders give you. Wherever they sent me...like if they say you go to Delbarton and give me the name on 'ere down somewhere. I go hunt him up and we look it over. Most of the time they'd send me out to see what really need. And, they had six...they had eight carpenter bosses when they first hired had eight of 'em. I was one of 'em. And, I worked in the Williamson territory, let's see, first I think that's where I was workin' Williamson territory. And, down towards Chattaroy now around I worked that territory. Then they sent me up to Matewan territory awhile...I worked up 'ere awhile. And, they sent me down to Delbarton after they had done fired about three from down here. I worked about three 3 years or a little better they let me go and replaced me. So, I never ask 'em no questions, because the same one that fired me the same one met him...I never even contested it. I said, "If you don't want me to work for you I'm sure we'll make it". So, I went ahead doin' my own workin' here and 'ere, you know, whereever. I's lookin' for it everyday have something to do. Uh... I've never let the table get without food on it.

J: Always managed to feed...

LS: Now, me and old lady we draw down about...both of us together...we get $700 hundred and somethin' almost eight hundred dollars a month. If we watch what were doing and don't buy to much we get by pretty good. Of course, I have a lot of sickness I got to go to the hospital quiet a...I go to Veterans all the time. I go down 'ere....I've got another appointment to go down 'ere, you know, they was checkin' me for cancer, internal cancer. (Unintelligible)

J: Who were...when you were workin' for the E.O.C. who were some of the big political bosses around here? I always here of a man named Noah Floyd?

LS: Noah Floyd, well, now Noah Floyd was the man that lived down in this end somewhere down here. And, I didn't really personally know him, but I did hear that, you know, that he kindly controlled ever vote around here and there. But nobody never did approach me for that because I wudn't in no...you know I wasn't up to... and I was still in the blue collar workers you might say. And, they wouldn't fool with that. You heard a lot of things going on, but as far as actually seeing any I didn't. You know, you got to have real evidence. Now, they come by and ask me one time about a job and I, the man was from Washington D.C. and I looked at him I said, "Buddy, I just go where I'm sent" and I said, "if uh... I been sent so many places I couldn't tell you when it was or where it was for nothing. I can tell you a few places", but I said, "I don't think that do you any good." so I looked at him and I was still workin' for 'em I said, "well, tell ya what I suggest...why don't you go over 'ere and supeona their records they've got and check 'em out, you know, I said, "Because my memory very short. Sometimes I geta feeling bad I don't hardly know who I am. I forget what I done last week...maybe they ask me about it I said I don't know. I'm seventy-three years old almost seventy four and when you get up like 'at sometime you get up you don't hardly know who you are. I hope you live long enough sometime you may experience that, but that's true. And, people see me gettin' mail and they say why you layin' in blocks anymore around here and 'ere and I don't even know who they are. They know me. It's where I used to work for 'em. That kind of bugs me a little, you know. I guess, it will, but, you know, come down to nitty gritty, naturally speakin.' I'm 73 years passed lookin' for 74 if I live that long that will be December the 2nd. Now, accordin' to nature, not many people pass that seventy. Oh, it's coming ain't it. I'm sick, my breathing sort, I have all kind of chest pains, I have all kind of muscle cramps, my blood circulation is...it just ain't got none hardly. Alright that's a good indication I'm not going to be around long. Somebody said, "don't that worry you" why sure, everybody's gonna die sometimes. You may get killed. But I went into the war, I didn't figure I'd come back...it didn't matter. I had some old (unintelligible) I was fightin' for and I wudn't even married when I went in either. I said, "Well, I got mother, dad, a lot of kin folks, alot of women and children, if they need me I ain't no better than nobody else."

J: Were you surprised that you survive the war?

LS: Not really, I just knowed that I either make it or I wouldn't. I really wudn't worried about it. Oh, I guess, I got a little shook up when I had to go to sea, but uh...who didn't. But I mean I really wudn't worried, because something had to be done. And, I'm afraid we gonna get into something else...gonna have to be done too. Of course I don't guess I'll be doing any of it, but never the less somebody will have to. A lot of people don't like you to talk like that, but it's coming.

J: Now, you...

LS: You believe it's coming? It really is. Look at all that stuff?

J: It's possible I'm sure. Hard times...

LS: I mean it's not even safe to walk this road after dark...or no other road. They talkin' about takin' our young'ins you ever hear about that hey! they'd have to find mine if they get it I got one and old woman got one, but when they start takin' 'em mines gonna disappear and I'm the only one gonna know where its at where's yours at you had one I say yeah it's around here somebody stoled it.

J: Did you do a lot of huntin' when you were growing up?

LS: Well, not too much...I didn't care about huntin'. I ain't been huntin' squirrel huntin'...people go squirrel huntin' and things. When I was younger I went. My taste kind of changed... taste buds or something for taste of squirrels and things. And, uh...I'd watch 'em play around me and have a gun out. (Unintelligible) Because I was just killin' 'em give 'em to somebody else's too lazy to go out, that's right. So, I wouldn't go. I haven't been fishin' in a long time. I got them license in my pocket. We went up to Laurel Lake last week though took the kids, grandkids, you know. Went up 'ere and had a little outing. And, they caught a few of them little ole sundads about that long. I baited their hooks for them.

LS: Thing about uh...my mother's people they were all from over in Lincoln County Kentucky over where they call King's Mountain. She came in as an old school teacher, or young school teacher then. And, she married my daddy.

J: Now, this is down in...she came into Virginia?

LS: Yel, she taught school I don't know how many years. And, then she went to school at Matewan. You know, you got to keep ya education up so much. And, she went to school at Matewan, when I was just startin' in the grades.

J: Oh, is that right?

LS: She decided, you know, that I was the baby of the family... so she decided she going up 'ere and went to high school. And, uh...I got uh...well, my nephew got uh...one of those handbooks over 'ere uh...got her name, picture and class and everything she's on. One of them like you get from school. And, he said, "I wouldn't take nothing" I said, " well, I wouldn't ask you for it."

J: So, she went on and finished school after she...

LS: Well, she went to get some kind of education...got to get little, you know, add a little. And, she was gonna go back teachin' school, but she never did. And, I tell ya the main thing was, me a little oh, boy going to school and my mother going to school and that never happen before. And, at first they would rib me something awful them boys would. And, I'd get busted many of times for bustin' their nose or mouth. I'd bust 'em buddy...(they) finally quit it. Howard Chambers did it too. He was about two years older than I. He was going to school 'ere. Why, when I started at Matewan school, he'd whip me everyday for a week, two weeks.

J: Just because you were a new kid?

LS: Just because I lived down at Hatfield farm down 'ere and walk up Matewan up railroad track. And, you know what I got tired of that. So, I stopped him from being able to win one. I could hit quicker than he could and faster. He come up for a fight I weined 'im pretty quick. Old Granny Hoskins, we call her granny, her name was Martha, she was over the grade school as the principal then. Carl Francis Montgomery I think he was the principal of the high school. I just knowed I (unintelligible) many of time with that old paddle that she had for being mean. Boy she could whup harder than any one of 'em though. She was from...people from Delorme...Thacker somewhere down 'ere and she was teachin' down. Boy, she tore me up.

J: She could wail huh?

LS: She could wail ya buddy. But I stopped them boys, I tell ya. I said I ain't gonna get whupped everyday. If you whup me a whole lot I'm (going to) whup him a little. And, I got a little boxing trainin' and a little bit of this that and tuther (the other). He stuck his nose right in my face I busted it.

J: Who taught you how to box?

LS: My uncle. He told me he said, "I ain't gonna give you no quarters. I ain't gonna give you nothing if you let anybody whup you without fightin' back." I couldn't miss my quarters not back...(then) Quarters's a big thing.

J: That's big money then.

LS: Eh buddy! And, James Hinkles we used...we's awful mean. We buy firecrackers...he'd buy 'em sometimes. We go in 'ere and light one toss it in the room where our teacher was. We'd do this all the time.

J: You do this in school?

LS: Yel, that's how mean we was. You talkin' about kids bein' mean these days we's mean back then...just wudn't as many of us...to be mean...but we was. Most of the time I's even meaner too. I don't know I'm not proud of my meanness. But I was, I was a rascal. But, you know what? I that's all gone...I can't... I don't want to be any more. But shouldn't been then but I was. So, you see a kid out in meanness hain't no used to lay down on him so hard. I suppose you did some of it yourself.

J: A little.

LS: I had all that you know, but we got along, I always got along. I reckon everybody around here like me...'round Matewan.

J: Did you ever, when you boys where out uh...creatin' meanness did you ever run into the Matewan police force?

LS: Ah, we knew 'em to well, we knowed where they was at.

J: Who were some of the...some of the police?

LS: Well, back when I was going to school uh...them Chambers, Hallie Chambers now you see they was a whole bunch of them Chambers. Hallie was he was uh...a police down 'ere. And, then uh...Boots Chambers he was a police awhile there. (Arie Coupler ? Unintelligible) about that time, I think maybe he got to be mayor. I don't know who was mayor 'fore he was unless it might have been Dan Chambers...Dan Chambers maybe. I know uh...and Broggs...old man Broggs, his name was Thurman. So, I knowed Howard and Paul and Thurman, all them Chambers. (He starts mumbling - I think he's referring to the Matewan Massacre) Now you notice anything that happen these fellers don't talk about, you know. Back like...something happen and you don't really, cause it's all gone and paid for. They all dead and gone. So, uh...you know, no man being around... he actually don't see, but it's what was talked, you know. Like you say, "Did you see it, "No I didn't see it," but that was what was gonna around and I that thing.

J: What kind of things now?

LS: Huh, like those jury lettin' guys off...somebody think they be guilty, you know. This, that and other you know it's best not to talk about things like that.

J: You said uh...you said the boys always knew where the...where the police were, how did you know where they were?

LS: Well, now we didn't do nothing like they do today. We didn't need no drugs. So, we didn't even no what a drug was. And if we wanted us some moonshine well, we knew where we could get some of that at.

J: Is it pretty easy to get?

LS: Yeah, old man George Steel, he used to bootleg it all the time. You could buy it for two gallon, two dollars for a half-a-gallon jar.

J: Was he in Matewan or over in Kentucky?

LS: He was in Matewan.

J: In Matewan?

LS: You see uh...about any old timer knowed you could go to his house. He's been dead for a long time, old man George has. His daddy's name was Eb Steel. We used to rent off of him up 'ere ...my daddy did. And, I lived 'ere right close to football field. And, wudn't playin' somebody else happen to be on 'ere. That fence wudn't about eight foot high. I could climb eight foot or jump it most time. We used to get out 'ere and gang up along the fence...you know, didn't have the money to get in. Sometimes somebody liked ya let you come through the gates knowed you didn't have nothing. So, us boys was raised up hard. But, we wudn't lazy I tell ya that. We worked. Somebody want something done we'd do it. Ah, we had (mumbles), you know. Of course, I always liked all the McCoys and Hatfields and let's see they well, the Hope's them Hope's we got along good.

J: Was your uh...were your mother and father religious people? Did the raise you in a church?

LS: Well, they didn't make me go to church, no, they just let me go when I wanted to. See they were, what you call old Primitive Baptist. And, my mother's home church, my daddy's both was up in Virginia 'ere what they called uh...well, it was old Primitive Baptist uh...Sulfur Springs. It was up at uh...in Virginia they call that Argo I would think Argo. I know I been up 'ere several times. They tried to get me...I mean some of the members from up...'ere said, "well, you ought to put your membership here" said "your mommy and daddy had it here for years." See, mother in nineteen and nineteen had her membership up 'ere. And, then 1920, I was about five years old then, my daddy had his put there. And, they'd go to church and I'd wonder, me ole boy, you know, I'd wonder why did they want to go to church so fer to church. I really did. I know when they'd be church one here and one up 'ere and all round close where we lived, but they wouldn't go. They go over there and I wondered about that, you know, I did. I found that out one time, why. It was kind accident too well on my part it was. I wudn't even thinkin' about going to church. I'd went over to work, it was on a Sunday, I think it was, and my uncle came up and said, "Me and your daddy," said, "ain't got no way to church over 'ere today" said, "why don't you not work and take us." I said, "Where's my dad at?" he said, "He's down Vergus Bowlings" said, "well go get him then." And, I went to church in just my work clothes like 'is right here. I went to church over 'ere. And, I set in 'ere and don't you know I hear that man he was...just like he knowed me for a hundred years...he was layin' it on me.

J: This is the man that was preachin'?

LS: Yes sir, and I said...hey, he's dead now...and I said, "Dad" he said, "What?" I said, "when they gonna have another church like that." I said, "I liked to hear that." He told me, "Up Blackberry." I went up Blackberry that next weekend. I went up 'ere buddy and first thing I knowed I found myself up 'ere and I said, "what do I have to do to get into that church. And, I've had my membership up 'ere for 25 years now and I was in my '40's then, but I tell ya now when the Lord gets a hold of ya that's something great son when he gets ya you done got.

J: What church is it now?

LS: The Old Primitive Baptist they call it "The Old Hardshells". It's called a Sumerra Church. It's up Blackberry Creek.

J: Is that the church you have the pic...the photo of there?

LS: No, that's the old pond Baptist Church uh...that's the same faith and order, but uh...that's the old pond. And, so I have a membership up 'ere. Now they was talkin'...the deacons was... wantin' to know "What you been doing all this time?" said, "are you dodging us?" I said, "I don't dodge nobody" they said, "we want you to start coming on Saturdays some" said, "we kind of short handed, but we need...need you, to use you" and I looked at him I said, "who told you I did," said, "We know" I said, "I been thinkin' that line myself" I said, "I would like to declare Jesus Christ bein' the way the truth and life. And, if you ever see what it's like in heaven you're go through him and you gonna look unto him. They ain't no other way." I said, "Well, I try to be there so," uh...I said, "I'll try to be there more regular. I been layin' out of church, they got on to me. (Unintelligible) But hey, I got a bible layin' over there see what it's looks like it's wore out.

J: You know you use it, you use it.

LS: Uh...got another one around here it's not worn as bad but I used it too. I'm not puttin' myself on nobody, because I'm less of nothing. But they's one up 'ere that ruled everything there is. He even ruled the hands of the doctors. And, I's down there scared to death and man they's going down my lungs with lights and going here and there and all I was scared to death I tell ya I was. I said, "Lord just be with me I'm sure everything will be fine, 'cause I don't know what this is all about." I've got some of their stuff over there they got me settin' up for another one. And, buddy that's a rough one. They blow you up like a balloon hunting for that internal cancer. And, think they found it. I don't worry about it. I've got go anyway, sometime. It's just bothers me on eatin'. See, I got me some teeth, but my face swells so much for two weeks. If I ever get the money I'll buy me more (laughing). But that's the whole deal now. And, I like to talk to people about who takes care of me. I don't take care of myself. I let that car fall on me, not the one...it's not settin' out there now. The gear shift wudn't workin'. My mind says, it's rainin', won't you wait on it. I said, ah, rain won't hurt it. I got there blocked up the back wheels make it a little high so I could get in under it. I jacked that thing up...I got up...I reach up 'ere to see where that shifts loose at. And, just about time I touched that the jack slipped where I had it jacked up. I got a little...it ain't...it's still a little hump 'ere. That's done almost a month ago. It clapped me right 'ere. Come right down on my head. I had a big ole pump knot 'ere. You know what I done when I got up...shook my head quit seein' stars? Blood runnin' down my face man and it just slapped down just like that and then raised back up and bounce kind of a tire. Well, that was real stupid of me. You know what I say when I see'd I wudn't dead, I said, "Thank you Lord. I arght (ought) to had better sense than that." And, I crawled out from under and come in 'ere. Told the ole woman, I said, "You want to see if you can stop this blood and put something on it." It stopped and I went ...I never even went to the doctor should have some stitches in it, I guess.

J: How long ago was that?

LS: About a month ago.

J: Looks like it's healed up alright...

LS: Ah, it got a little...

J: Healin' up anyway.

LS: Some kind of little knot there. And, the funniest thing about it at my age I can climb the top of that mountain over 'ere.

J: Is that right?

LS: And, I ain't afraid to go, because hey, I said I'm just gonna wonder around here you just go with me. They told me to walk two miles maybe I walk four I don't know. The doctor did they...they thought I had heart trouble...come to prove it was all coming from uh...this uh...indigestion...well, they think I got cancer and I may have. I guess, that's what it is...they ain't never proved it yet they still tryin' to prove it. And, I got big ole thing I got uh...they got me set up for 12th of June. And, I got a gallon of that stuff you drink down there and not eat nothing just drank 'at...and then go down there and let 'em go with them lights again. Hey, that's rough man. But it's like I said, I'm goin' to trust the one that put me down here in the first place.

J: Did the people in you church participate or as you were growin' up did you participate in revival meetings?

LS: Hunt-uh. (No)

J: Never went huh.

LS: Oh, I'd went to some of 'em, but it didn't mean nothing to me.

J: How about since you joined the church?

LS: Yel, it means a lot to me, but the most of all the main thing that makes me is the Lord Jesus Christ. He means more than the heaven and earth to me. And, I think that uh...that's the way it should be to everybody else, because he created it all son, and the creater is always greater than that was created by him. A lot of people wouldn't see that, but that's true.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection