Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Harry Berman Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mike one. Narrator's microphone. June twenty-eighth, 1989. Sound check mike two. Interviewer's microphone. June twenty-eighth, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center. I'm in the home of Harry Berman in Williamson conducting a follow-up interview to our original interview of June fifteenth, 1989. (The first half-hour of the first interview was erased) It is approximately 2:00 P.M.. Mr. Berman for uh...by the way of background, if you can tell me, when and where you were born, and the date, and something about your father and mother.

Harry Berman: Well, I was born in Keystone, West Virginia and it was in, 1902. June the twenty-sixth.

J: Uh-huh. Was Keystone a little mining community?

HB: Yeah. That's right.

J: Okay. And what were your mother's and father's names?

HB: My father's name was Maco...I mean, Max Jacob Berman, and my mother's name was uh...was Becky Wolfe Berman.

J: Okay. And you had brothers and sisters also?

HB: Uh-huh. I had uh...one brother was Irvin. He was a...I forgot what he.. Irvin, and I had one brother Morris, and myself.

J: Okay.

HB: And then, I had a sister by the name of Dora, and Ruby.

J: Uh-huh. Now, both of your parents, I believe I'm right here had...had come over from Russia at a young age. Is that right?

HB: My father came over from Russia and uh..he was born in [Kiva] Keva. I said it was in Riga but it wasn't in Riga, it was [Kiva] Keva.

J: Okay.

HB: Next to the Baltic Sea.

J: Okay.

HB: That time he came to this country when he was thirteen years old.

J: Uh-huh. Did he come over by himself or with other family members?

HB: I think he must have come, with some of his people, I just don't...just don't remember what but he came over here with someone. I guess with some of his family.

J: And had...did your mother come over at about that same age or...

HB: No. She was born in this country.

J: Oh, I see.

HB: She was born in New York.

J: I see. Were her parents from uh...from overseas?

HB: Uh..uh...I don't know if they were born here or overseas. I just don't remember, 'course I don't remember her saying anything about where they were born, but I imagine they were from this country.

J: Now, your father got involved in the clothing business, clothing sales. How did he get started in that?

HB: Well, by peddling. In uh...in Maryland.

J: Was that...

HB: And when he had enough capital ahead, then he went to Keystone and opened up his little clothing store.

J: Now, did he start uh...peddling pretty much, as soon as he got into the United States when he was just a young boy?

HB: I say yeah. Uh-huh. He did.

J: Traveled around by himself?

HB: By himself. Uh-huh. And you know its not easy, of course they didn't have no cars or anything to travel, so he done most of his travelin' by walkin', and carryin' it on his back.

J: Now, did he go into business for himself in Keystone or did he work with someone else?

HB: No. By himself. Uh-huh.

J: Okay. So he opened up a little store there?

HB: Uh-huh.

J: Okay. And how long did you remain in Keystone then after you were...

HB: Well, we left there when I was about uh...I'd judge about seven or eight years old. And we moved to Matewan at that time.

J: Okay. And was this a uh...business opportunity? Is that what caused you to move?

HB: Yeah. Uh-huh. It was.

J: And then...so your father opened up a store in Matewan, or was he in partners with a store?

HB: Well, no. He wasn't no partner...It was his own...he moved what he had in Keystone into Matewan; his stock he had. He had a pretty good stock, and he always kept a full stock in Matewan in the store and done a fine business there.

J: Now, did he deal exclusively in mens' clothing?

HB: Mens', womens', and childrens'.

J: Okay. Do you remember where he ordered his goods from after he got the store underway?

HB: Huh?

J: Where did he get his goods from after he was established in Matewan?

HB: Well, mostly from Baltimore and uh...there's quite a few wholesale houses at that time in Baltimore, so that's where mostly he got his shoes, his uh...clothing from there, in ladies and children's. Mostly all out of Baltimore.

J: Uh-huh. And stuff would be shipped in on the train I assume?

HB: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

J: Now, did you go to work for your father at any time?

HB: Well, you know uh...when we came to Matewan, then I started to school, and Mrs. [Martha] Hoskins was my teacher...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: At that time.

J: She taught all grades?

HB: We was in and out the store all the time, you know, and uh...we lived upstairs, over the store in the apartment building which belonged to Greenway Hatfield, see.

J: So that was the Hatfield Building?

HB: Uh-huh. It was the Greenway Hatfield building. And uh...the side that we lived on there, uh..faced the railroad side.

J: And, there was another store...clothing store next to yours. Is that correct?

HB: That was the Schaeffer brothers. Uh-huh.

J: Okay. And there was also a barber shop in that building you were telling me.

HB: Well, that was on the other side. See there was a barber shop, yeah.

J: Okay. Do you remember who the barber was?

HB: Uh...Doug Gooslin.

J: Alright, you told me that.

HB: Doug Gooslin.

J: Now, your father did business, uh, with...you were telling me before, some of the...some of the union people would uh...trade in your father's store.

HB: Yes. My father was always, uh...in with the union people there he...he liked them all, and he helped a lot of 'em in uh...in clothing, and also carried them on the books too, see, because some of them would be on a strike, you know. And they just didn't have the money at the time so he would carry them a few from month to month that a way. And I...I think that's why Sid Hatfield liked us so much.

J: Sid was uh...

HB: Sid was a union man himself, see.

J: And he used to visit the store?

HB: He used to visit and quite often in the store and tell us a lot of things that he had done you know and so forth and so on. He was a good man, Sid was. He was honest and if he owed you anything, you could be sure one thing, he would pay you. He was--that's a fact--he was an honest man. He was good hearted, but if you made him mad (Laughter), he had it in for ya.

J: How was...how would you assess his uh...performance as police chief? Was he a good chief?

HB: Yeah. Sid was a good man, as a chief. If he could do a fellow a favor, he would do it. He was just that type of a man. Sid was a man of about, I'd say about maybe five eleven to six feet. Weighed about a hundred and seventy-five pounds. Raw-boned...well muscled. He was. And if he'd ever hit ya, you can just figure that you don't know what's holdin' you up there.

J: Did you ever see him hit anyone?

HB: Yeah. I did. One day I was in the store and...and a black feller came running through the store there and Sid says to "halt." He didn't do it...he kept running towards the railroad side, you know, and when he wouldn't stop , Sid stepped on the side and he swung back and hit that feller, and he fell on the floor. Just like a ton of bricks. And this black fellow, I imagine, he was a man maybe weighed maybe well uh...maybe about two-thirty or maybe more, and over six foot tall. And when he fell on the floor, Sid bent down and picked him up by the collar, and to, okay him over there to the jail, and about a half an hour he came back with a big smile on his face. Sid, whenever you'd see him, he'd always have a wad of tobacco in his mouth. And he had gold teeth in front. He had high cheek bones.

J: Was he uh...a real a talkative guy or kind of a quiet...

HB: Sid was...yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, he would talk quite a bit.

J: Now you said if he got mad at you, you had to look out but was he...was he...

HB: Yeah, because uh...well, he just didn't believe in anybody puttin' anything over on him you know, he's just that type of a fellow.

J: Did he have a short temper, or was he slow to anger?

HB: Well, he didn't seem to rage or anything like that. But if you made him mad, you can just figure (laughter) you better walk away.

J: Uh-huh. Now where was the...the jailhouse where he took this fellow?

HB: The jail house was across the railroad, and as I see when I was up there, it's still there. And that jailhouse must be at least over eighty years old.

J: So it is that sort of uh..block building next to I guess where the old train station would have been?

HB: Yeah. That's right.

J: Okay.

HB: Over there behind the station. Now, in the back of the station there the railroad always had a separate track, and that's where they would bring in uh...the boxcars to unload in the back of the station, see, at that time. And at that time, the station I presume was about maybe a hundred and fifty foot from one end and the other.

J: Okay.

HB: I've been in that station many, many times in there when they would unload.

J: So that's...that's where your father picked up his uh...his shipments?

HB: Uh...yes, sometimes, now, when those large boxes would come in with clothing, we would uh.,..take them and put them on that truck. At that time the railroad company had these trucks, you know, and we'd load it on the truck and bring it over across the railroad track you know and unload it there in front of the store...

J: Now was there a sidewalk on that side of the uh...buildings?

HB: Uh...you mean where our store was at?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Oh, yes, uh-huh, there was a sidewalk, a full length sidewalk up until uh...that uh...what do you call it uh...up until about the wood frame building there, and...then it would stop and then that would be the broad walk, from there onto Chambers store.

J: I see.

HB: See.

J: So you had a concrete walk in front of your store?

HB: Yeah.

J: But farther down it was board.

HB: Had it the full length of the Hatfield building. They had the full length of the Hatfield building.

J: Okay.

HB: Uh-huh. And uh...all the way toward Testerman's store too.

J: Uh-huh. Okay. But in front of Chambers, then, it was board uh...boards?

HB: Uh...yeah well, it was, no it was concrete.

J: Oh. Okay. Now you were a witness to...to at least some of the action on the day of the so-called Matewan massacre.

HB: Yes.

J: Describe that day to me.

HB: I happened to be there...well, I didn't know that the detectives came in on the midnight train...Train always comes in at twelve o'clock at night and of course, the only place that they could put up for the night would be in Buskirk's hotel. Well, the next morning you know, I heard that the detectives were in town, see, was the fact nobody didn't know that they were there, because they came in twelve o'clock, see. So I heard that they were there and uh...nothing no more said. Well, they came there to take the people out of the company houses and to see if they could break the strike, see, so I don't know how far they got with it but along just before sixteen comes in around five o'clock, people always come to visit the trains when they come in. So I happened to be out in front of the store at that time and I seen quite a few of the men a carrying their bags they were...they must have been the detectives, and on their bags they had their...their rifles strapped to their bags.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: You know, of course, they were taken apart and then in a few minutes after that I seen Sid and Testerman walkin' behind them. Walking back towards Chambers' Hardware. Usually the train always ...the passenger coaches always...ends up there at that point, see, because it's such a long train, see?

J: So the passengers would get on and off in front of Chambers' Hardware?

HB: Yes. That's right. Uh-huh. And that's why the detectives headed that way.

J: Uh-huh. Okay. (Pause)

HB: Uh-huh.

J: What was the uh....what was the weather like that day? Do you recall?

B: Huh?

J: What was the weather like that day?

HB: Well, it seemed to be comfortable. It wasn't cold, it wasn't hot, it was just moderate...

J: And how many...

HB: I had short-sleeves on at that time. (laughter) Uh-huh.

J: How many uh..detectives and other folks would you estimate were milling around downtown?

HB: Well, I don't know but I know there's one thing it was quite a crowd. It was quite a crowd of people there and when uh...I walked behind Testerman and Sid, I was always a fellow that was curious. I wanted to see what was goin' on. See, I had my nose stuck in everything at that time, so they stopped there at Chambers store. And Testerman was talkin'...I presume it must have been one of the detectives. The detectives had his back towards Chambers' Hardware store, there.

J: So were they out on the sidewalk?

B: Yeah. On the sidewalk. Had his back towards the building. Testerman was facin' him, see, and Sid was behind Testerman, and I was not more than three or three and a half feet at the most from Sid.

J: Behind him?

HB: Yeah. Behind Sid and their was quite a few people in the back of me. I don't know how many, but I know there was quite a few of them, and on the side standin' around, you know. Wanted to see what was goin' on.

J: Uh-huh. Were people expecting some kind of trouble?

HB: I don't know if they were or not. I don't think anyone was, to tell you the truth.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But...when I seen Sid pull his gun...now very few people I don't think seen that, when he pulled his gun and he shot Testerman, I seen Testerman fall on the...on the ground, see, and the fellow that was talkin' to uh...to Testerman, I don't know if he was..if he was shot or not, see, but I presume he was, see, but by the time I got back from where I was standing there when I left, about twenty-five or thirty feet, I seen three bodies laying on the ground.

J: So you saw Sid pull his gun and then...then he shot the mayor.

HB: Yeah.

J: Was he standing sort of behind and off to the side of the mayor or...?

HB: No. Right in behind him.

J: Right back of him?

HB: Uh-huh.

J: Okay.

HB: Right in the back of him. And then when sixteen came in see, of course they picked Testerman up and they put him in the baggage car to take him to Welch hospital, and of course he died before he got there, see? But now when that gun went off, everybody started shootin', and that's when I...I left there. I seen three bodies laying on the ground, and I headed back to the store.

J: Were these the bodies of detectives?

HB: Detectives. That's right.

J: And had they uh...had they drawn weapons themselves by this time?

HB: Well, I don't know if they did or not but now they had their guns, what do you call it the uh...their shotguns strapped to their suitcase so they never had no chance. They never had no chance.

J: So, when you ran to your father's store?

HB: Yeah. So I went back to the store.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See. Now the news got back to these fellows, to the union men that one of the detectives beat it down as far as the tunnel and, to flag sixteen, and got on sixteen so when sixteen came into the station, they uh...held the train up for fifteen minutes at the most, I believe, and they looked from one end to the other.

J: This is the union men?

HB: Yeah. The union men. But they didn't find nothin' then. See so uh,..it must have been just the tale started there of something was said but I do know though, from what I understand, that Mrs. Hoskins, the teacher, hid one of the detectives in her coalhouse in the back of her home.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, and how ling he stayed there or how he got away, I don't know. That's a fact.

J: But he did get away?

HB: But he must have got away. He must have got away.

J: After you...you ran back to your father's store, uh...of course, the shooting was going on at that time, uh...

HB: Uh...yes, it was goin' on but it didn't last too long. Didn't last too long.

J: Few minutes, maybe?

HB: Yeah. That's all. Didn't last too long and uh....some of the union men, I knew and some that I didn't knew, and you know, know and uh,.. so uh...at that time some of them were...twenty-five, thirty, forty, fifty years old, see, and of course they are dead and gone now.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See. At that time. So uh...actually I was the only one that stood there and seen it all and uh...there's no one today can say that. Now this fellow that I was talkin'...that I was tryin' to think of his name. I couldn't do it. He was there, but I don't think he seen anything, Frank Allara.

J: Oh, yeah.

HB: You know Frank?

J: I haven't met him, I know the name though.

HB: Well, he's a nice fellow.

J: Yeah.

HB: Frank Allara, and then he's up around in my age, now. He said he was there at the time.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But I don't think he seen what I seen.

J: Now later that...so you lived downtown so you were still in town later that night?

HB: Yeah. I was still in town.

J: Did you see anything going on that...that evening?

HB: No, because I tell you, when number seven came in, seven always comes in right after sixteen leaves. It runs from Bluefield to Williamson here and uh...they took the bodies of these fellows and they took them across the railroad tracks and put them in the baggage car, and brought them here to Williamson.

J: Uh-huh. Put them all in one car?

HB: Put them all in one car. In the baggage cars, see, and then my father decided we'd just take number seven and come on to Williamson and we stayed here with my Uncle, Jacob Shine, also had a clothing store here in Williamson.

J: Uh-huh. So your father wanted to get you away from there or...or was this just something that you did routinely?

HB: No. He just felt uneasy I think.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And uh...so we just thought maybe that we would just come all get on...on the seven...on number seven and come into Williamson. So, the next morning we got number seven back again, and got off at Matewan coming back.

J: And by that time had things settled down?

HB: Yeah. Things were all settled and uh...gone there and uh...I think Sid was still chief police, and I don't know how long. I can't remember now. But uh...he uh...he went to Matewan at that time uh...from Matewan into Welch at that time and uh...with uh...Howard CHambers...no ,with one of the Chambers boys.

J: Ed Chambers.

HB: Uh-huh. And that's when uh...they killed them on the steps there at the courthouse.

J: And between the time you saw Sid shoot the mayor and the time Sid was shot, did you have any contact uh...with Sid to speak of? Did you see him on the street or anything?

HB: No. No. I didn't. I didn't talk with Sid anymore there. I guess he...but now I don't know if I should mention, can you cut it off a minute? (Reference to Sid and Jessie rumors)

J: Okay.

HB: Testerman's home was out here on uh...you know where you go out to forty-nine, you know?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Along in here somewheres (pointing at Matewan Development Center's Walking Tour Brochure). That's where they lived and uh...let's see now, there was a...there was a crossing in there I think, that's the railroad.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: There was a crossing that went up here see and uh...now all these houses are gone in there all but back in here now this...on this street uh...there's a medical building in there. A brick medical building uh...I guess you've noticed it haven't you?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Uh-huh, and a few other houses and back in here across from the bank in here was uh...was Dan Chamber's home and I imagine it's gone too, I think. J: I think so. HB: Across there from the bank uh...that's on the railroad side see and uh...Testerman's home was right in here somewheres on forty-nine.

J: Now in the uh...

HB: Somewhere's in here where that bridge is in there.

J: Uh-huh. Now in the, I think we might have this in the other part of the interview, but I want to make sure we get this on tape. In that Buskirk building...

HB: Uh-huh.

J: Uh...that's where the shooting of the police chief...

HB: That was uh...the shooting there of uh...is the tape on?

J: Yeah. Well, that...that the part about the shooting we do have on the other interview, but I wanted to make sure I got the building right.

HB: Yeah. That's the building.

J: The Buskirk building.

HB: In the Buskirk building there.

J: Okay.

HB: I must have been about uh...maybe ten, eleven years probably at that time and like I say I always wanted to know what was goin' on and I knew uh...Mr. Ackerman well, he was the chief police then at that time.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, and uh...I think he had an apartment up there. Him and his wife in the Hatfield building.

J: Okay.

HB: I'm pretty sure it was, see.

J: Did uh...

HB: And oh... John Adams, he...he was a man of six-foot-over. Weighed about a hundred and eighty-five, ninety pounds and uh...seemed like that he was...that whiskey got a hold of him some way or another. He just liked his whiskey, and I think he was causing too much trouble there in the saloon.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And uh...so they sent for Mr. Ackerman, chief of police, so when I seen Ackerman pass by the store, he passed by our store, see, there and he went on down on the other side of the street you know, heading down that way. I follered him and uh...so then he got into the saloon...come to the saloon he went on in. And there was two large plate glasses on either side.

J: Now did this look out onto the railroad tracks?

HB: Yeah. Facing the railroad side. Uh-huh. So when Ackerman went in there, I stood outside and looked through the glass and uh....so uh...I don't know what he was talkin' or anything to them because I couldn't hear him, see, but there was quite a few people in the saloon at that time and I noticed a lot of them scattered around. And they was about four pool tables in the saloon and the uh...and the saloon bar was on the other side, see, on the right. The pool tables were on the left, see, and uh...so I seen everybody begin to get around there and leave and all at once it seemed like that Ackerman couldn't do no good with him, so then they pulled out their guns and they start shootin' at one another 'till they killed both of them. Both of them just...

J: Now was Adams uh...uh...did he have a reputation around town as bein' a...a...sort of a hard guy?

HB: Sort of a bully, like.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Uh-huh.

J: Were there any women in that saloon or was it all men?

HB: Huh?

J: When...when they came...when the people came runnin' out, was it all men or were there some women in there?

HB: I don't know where they went to, but I know they begin to scatter. There wasn't too many people in there.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But they scattered around. They must have hid behind the bar or somewhere else there but they wasn't nobody in the saloon when that, shootin' started.

HB: So I don't guess there's anybody today really could see what I saw.

J: Now after uh...Ackerman and Adams shot each other...who...who took over uh...uh...did he have a deputy or anything that uh...

HB: I don't know. I don't know. I guess, I was to small really to uh...understand mostly. All I know I...in my age I seen what I seen, see, now Mr. Buskirk, I didn't see Bob Buskirk at all there so he must have come in later, see, but he was a big man himself and he didn't take no foolishness, either. Mr. Buskirk was a wealthy man, see, and I recall at that time in nineteen and eighteen, that was a severe winter. Ice, used to pack up on the river there eight and ten feet high.

J: Huh. Was that the winter...

HB: The whiskey...

J: Oh. Okay.

HB: The whiskey must have went out in 1912 or fifteen I think, somewhere in that number.

J: In West Virginia?

HB: Yeah, in West Virginia at that time. I can't remember the exact date but, I know it went out and uh...so uh...Mr. Buskirk at that time used to bring whiskey in on these boats, on these tug boats, you know. At that time the river was rather high, see, and today it's all filled up.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, but he used to bring his whiskey in on boats.

J: And then, well, after whiskey was illegal in West Virginia, he moved across the river. Is that right? And opened up a store over there?

HB: He had his home...no he didn't open no saloon there.

J: Huh.

HB: Uh...Mr. Buskirk married a woman um...she was either from Kansas or from Tennessee. I can't recall which, but she had two daughters, she did, Bob married her and brought her back to Matewan and where uh...they was a house there, now there's parkin' lot in there, isn't it? Facin' the riverside on the riverside there?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Well, now he had a home in there. It was a beautiful home facin' the...home facin' Hatfields building there. And that's where they lived at that time with her and the two daughters. Now Bob had a son named uh...Bob, and I presume he lives in Huntington now I think. I don't know if he's livin' now or not.

J: Huh.

HB: But he must be a man up in his eighties I guess. Maybe seventy-five or eighty.

J: Okay.

HB: But now Mrs. Buskirk died and then her two daughters, Mildred and Inez were their names, they died too and I don't know, Bob passed away too. I don't know.

J: He died young, I think.

HB: Yeah.

J: Now did uh...did his wife and daughters die during the influenza epidemic, or?

HB: No...no.

J: Huh.

HB: But no.

J: Did...did that flu epidemic hit uh...Mate...the Matewan area pretty hard?

HB: Yes. It did. Uh-huh. Well, there wasn't no doctors there so they brought a few doctors in from Baltimore and they brought one in from Topeka, Kansas, see. Now the only doctor there was that time was Dr. Goings and Dr. Sorrell. Dr. Sorrell was from Baltimore.

J: Huh.

HB: See. And that was where he had his clinic there. Back in here. (referring to brochure)

J: Uh-huh. Back where that big parking area is now?

HB: Uh-huh. Back in there.

J: So after the epidemic passed then, did Dr. Sorrell leave and go back to Baltimore?

HB: I don't know, but I think Dr. Goings, he passed away I think and his wife today is still livin'. She must be a woman way over her nineties, and she's living in Huntington.

J: Is that right?

HB: Yeah. Not in Huntington. In Bluefield. I was told that uh...I was talking to a fellow there in Dr., uh...the eye doctor, Dr. Blades and this fellow told me that Mrs. Goings is livin' there a couple of houses from the clinic. Dr. Blades' clinic. So I don't know if she's still livin' now or not, but she could tell you an awful lot, too.

J: She sure could. Okay.

HB: I can't think of her name.

J: I have just one more short question then I'll let you off the hook.

HB: Yeah. Go ahead.

J: Uh...when you...when you saw the uh... shooting start and at the massacre, I meant to ask you a few minutes ago but I forgot, when Sid shot the mayor, to your knowledge, was that the first shot fired?

HB: Yeah. That was the first shot.

J: That set it all off?

HB: And then that started all the shooting. You could hear guns poppin' everywhere, see, and that's when I seen three of the men laying on the ground. They were the detectives.

J: Between the time and the first shot was fired and you got back to your father's store, at least three people had been shot then, or four people countin' the mayor.

HB: Before I got back to the store I seen three people...I was not more than twenty-five or thirty feet from where I was standin'.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: From Sid that I seen three men laying on the ground. And I don't know how many more that was...I beat it. And everybody else scattered around.

J: So you didn't know when...where the shots were comin' from you just knew there was some firin' goin' on?

HB: I just heard the firin' that's all and I beat it back. And I think everybody else started runnin' now, too, I think. But that's it. But uh...when sixteen came in, uh...the captain from the train, Captain McCulloch, he was a little short fella. Mean as a striped snake. He didn't take no foolishness, see. And he was mad as a hornet when they held up the train for about fifteen minutes to search to see if there was a detective on the train.

J: Huh.

HB: I remember that.

J: Did they go through the train carrying their weapons...carrying their rifles?

HB: I don't know, probably...probably they did but I didn't know. I beat it back.

J: Now, Mr. McCulloch, was he the conductor on the train when you say captain?

HB: He was the conductor yeah, he was the conductor of the train at the time with the N & W and uh...sixteen ran from Cincinnati I think to Norfolk at that time, see? Okay. And then number seven would come in after sixteen leaves, from Bluefield to Williamson and then at twelve and then uh...the ...at twelve o'clock there would be number three, that would be the midnight train. That would come in from Norfolk to Cincinnati. See, and then the next day, at twelve o'clock, at noon, fifteen would come in, see, and they'd carry a lot of passengers. That train would come from Norfolk to uh...Cincinnati.

J: This is all N & W...

HB: There was quite a few trains runs through there, you know, and they held quite a few passengers. And lot of baggage and stuff would take off so uh...like sixteen now would make a stop at Williamson here and Matewan and uh...I don't think they would stop up until they got maybe to Welch, I think or, I believe. They didn't make many stops, 'cause it was a fast train through and uh...number three would be the same way. Fifteen would be the same way, see, but now uh...number seven comin' from uh...from Bluefield into Williamson here, they would stop at every station, every station. They wouldn't miss a station.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And uh..comin' back the next morning, it would be the same thing they'd stop at every station, see.

J: Whenever...you mentioned there were a lot of people meet the train on the evening of the massacre. Was uh...was there always a crowd to meet the train?

HB: Well, they was yeah...they was always a lot of people to come to see who gets on...who gets off, you know what I mean, and uh... you know, to visit, you know, they'd always be a lot of people on that side of the of the railroad. Be a lot of people. Be more people on that side than it would be on the main street.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: That's a fact, but now, it's different now.

J: Yeah. Where did your mother do her grocery shoppin'?

HB: Well, at that time there wasn't no supermarkets so it was just the little grocery store across the street. Now, across the street there from uh...uh...from my father's store, there was a little grocery there and uh...old like fellow, nice fellow, what the devil is his name...Mr. Williams. His name was Williams. He had a little grocery store there and of course that's where we mostly bought our groceries in there. It wasn't very few grocery stores in there, at Matewan at that time and uh...and it just two clothing stores, my father and Schaeffer's. That's the only two grocery (clothing) stores that was there, see, at that time and at that time, back in 1912 or fifteen, they never had no blacktop, now uh...are you on talk? (are you taping)

J: Oh yeah.

HB: I just wanted to find out and see if those steps were my houses, you know where my father had his store...?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: On the main street. Is there any steps goin' down?

J: Out on the, uh...one end?

HB: No.

J: Oh. Down onto the street?

HB: Yeah. All the way from the full length of the store...store, Schaeffer Brothers and ours, too?

J: I don't...I don't think so. There's just a big drop off there.

HB: Well, it wasn't that way when we were there. They must have taken it off.

J: There's a concrete, like a platform but there aren't steps there.

HB: Yeah. There was steps there, you know what I mean.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Like that you know. Maybe a little higher and higher.

J: I bet they took those out when they put the uh...when they widened the road or something.

HB: Could have been...because there was about five or six steps.

J: All along the length of that...

HB: Yeah. All...all along the there.

J: Huh.

HB: Yeah. All along the Hatfield building. From one end to the other. Now on Testerman's side, there wasn't any steps, just from Schaeffer Brothers on to the...towards the Hatfield building was steps.

J: Was their [sic] a butcher shop down town?

HB: No. There wasn't no butcher shop there. Matewan at that time had very few stores there, now the only drugstore there was uh...uh...Leckie's. It was a nice drugstore. Old man Leckie, knew him real well. He's passed away...he's gone. I think his wife is still living, see. I think he lived across the river and I think they been trying to sell that home over there. I don't know if they sold it now or not, see, and uh...she could tell you probably a whole lot if she's still livin'. I don't know.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But they was very few people livin' today there in Matewan you know, can tell you anything about it or was there. They may be people that...as old as I am may recall...when this thing occurred there, see what I mean, but they didn't live in Matewan. They lived out you see.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: They can't tell you nothing, see. May be a mile or two. Some of them lived at Red Jacket. Some lived at Thacker. Some lived in different places. Some lived across the river but they didn't come into Matewan, see. So um...Matewan was some Matewan at that time I tell ya.

J: Was it a good place to live?

HB: Well, they didn't bother you lived there or nothing unless ...if you left them alone. If you were good to them, they would be good to you, see,. People were nice. They were friendly, this and that, and uh...but like I said though, (laughter) always be nice to 'em and they will be nice to you. That's all there is to it. But people liked us there, and they done a lot of tradin' there, in the store. My father done a lot of business there. He really did.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Because we helped a lot of people there in this uh...we uh...people that needed things and they didn't have the money you know, these were union men. They worked in the mines. They worked hard. They worked them really like dogs at that time, see. Fifteen, sixteen hours a day, you know, and didn't pay 'em much. And they laid on their bellies and knees in water, see. You know, you feel sorry for people like that you know see, and my father he helped a lot of 'em out. He really did. He helped a lot of them out. I guess he lost a lot of money, but that's alright. But you make it back someway or another.

J: Did Schaeffer brothers do a pretty good business, too?

HB: Yeah, they done a good business there too. And uh...after the shooting and everything, I think they didn't stay in Matewan too long, see. I think uh...after my father decided to uh..to come to Williamson here and put in his store here, see, I think Schaeffer brothers left too and they went to Cincinnati, and they went in the wholesale business.

J: When did your father bring his store to Williamson?

HB: Huh?

J: When did your father put his store in, in Williamson?

HB: In Williamson? Right there uh...where Dickie Hatfield's store is. You know where Dickie Hatfield's store is on, on third avenue, facing the Daily News.

J: Okay. Oh, I know right where you mean. Yeah.

HB: Facin' the Daily News.

J: And what year was that then?

HB: I don't know. Let me see. 1932, thirty, twenty-five, I don't know that must have been maybe in nineteen uh...maybe twenty-five?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Something like that I believe.

J: So your father left and then Schaeffer brothers left shortly after. About that same time.

HB: Yes. Uh-huh. They left too, yeah. And then I think after my father left I think Nenni's came in. There's a store there named Nenni's isn't it?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Well, his father was a shoemaker, see, I think the boy's father was a...I think they had two or three boys. I don't know. Maybe daughters too. I don't know but his father was a shoemaker. He fixed many shoes for me there and then I decided I guess he decided maybe to uh...maybe go in the, in the clothing business so that's where they are today.

J: Did he have a little shop in the uh...were he uh...fixed the shoes right there in town?

HB: I think so. Yeah. Uh-huh...uh-huh. I think he must have went in the same store that my father had his store in, I think, and then after that, I think they moved somewheres else there.

J: Yeah. That's right down on the other end of the...

HB: Down on the other side of the street.

J: Couple doors down. That same side of the street but couple doors down.

HB: Couple doors down. Uh-huh.

J: Real big place.

HB: Yeah. (tape cuts off)

J: That completes the follow-up interview with Harry Berman uh... to continue the transcription, you need to go to side two of the first tape of the original interview which was conducted on June the fifteenth. As you recall, the first side of that tape is blank because of an...of an error in copying when I wiped out that part of the interview.

HB: Now Sid had a little love affair goin' on between her and him. Mrs. Testerman, see. Would call it a little romance in there and I think he had a chance. That was probably his chance a doin' what he did, you know, to get her. Like I said before, she was a very attractive woman.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: She really was. And uh...Miss. uh...my niece up at Bluefield, Miss. Platmik, has a picture of her and my sister together, I think.

J: So you...

HB: Huh?

J: You're figuring then that Sid took advantage of the confusion of the time?

HB: Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

J: Now where was he, as you recall, where was he standing when he shot Testerman? Behind Testerman?

HB: Uh..he yeah. He was behind Testerman. Uh-huh. He was behind Testerman.

J: Uh....uh...as you recall, did any shots come from, after the general shooting, come from up above?

HB: I don't know where it come from. (laughter)

J: You...you lit out, huh?

HB: I left there. I really did. I left there and uh...now Sid knew that I was standin' in the back of him.

J: Oh, he did?

HB: Yeah. He knew because he...he turned around. He wanted to see who was around, you know, and he seen me.

J: Is this after the shot or before?

HB: No. This was before.

J: This was before the shot.

HB: Yeah. Before the shot. Now I liked Sid...Sid liked me. He liked us all and he used to come and visit quite a bit in the store and talk, see, he really did and uh..he was a likeable fellow. He really was but like I said before, you can make him mad and step on his feet, you just better look out. I'm gonna tell you. So uh...I think that's what took place there. He, so uh,..and then him, then he was summoned up to Welch and that's when he uh...when he got killed there on the steps there with this other Chambers boy.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Can't think of his name.

J: Ed.

HB: Huh?

J: Ed. Ed Chambers.

HB: Was it Ed? I didn't think it was Ed, I thought it was, maybe it was.

J: Yeah, it was Ed. He was..he was Reece Chambers' son.

HB: Yeah. Uh-huh. That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

J: Between the time...Oh, go ahead.

HB: No. Well now Reece was in that too.

J: Yeah. What about Reece? Did you know Reece very well?

HB: I just can't, you know recognize too well. I...I know him. I've talked with him but I can't, you know, I didn't have much dealings with him.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, what I mean. Didn't have much dealings with him. But at that time when Matewan was...was young at that time, you know, there wasn't no blacktop on the streets. It was just a dirt road see. That was in 1910 or twelve or something like in that, you know, and across the street now where the bank is now, facin' the, you know, on the river side...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Uh...uh...Broggs Chambers and Dan Chambers you know, Dan he passed away here just about a year or so ago...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I think and uh...his father Broggs and uh...and Dan and another brother or two, I can't recall, um...his father run the grocery store there where the bank is now in that section.

J: Oh.

HB: In that section in there and I always remember, he always had a sign out there uh...what do you call it,these shoes, what did they call it uh...Red Goose shoes?

J: Red Wings?

HB: Yeah. No not Red Wings...

J: Not Red Wings.

HB: A red geese...a red goose. Something like that. He always had a sign out there and a big sign of tobacco. What do you call that stuff there uh...pouch uh...?

J: Mail Pouch?

HB: Uh...yeah. Uh-huh.

J: Now this was a grocery store there where the bank is now on that river side of the street?

HB: On that river side. That's where the bank was, Uh-huh.

J: I'll be darned. And the...and the Chambers family ran that?

HB: And the Chambers ran that. Old man Chambers himself. Him and his wife and his...that was his son, Broggs Chambers. Now, Broggs also ran the uh...the hardware and the...the funeral home, you know, where Mrs. Hoskins' house was now was across from Chambers uh...grocery you know, the old man grocery store, was across the street there.

J: On this...across the alley on the same side of the street?

HB: Uh-huh. Across the alley...Uh-huh. Across the alley there. I recall that and by the way, every once in awhile, a dream will come to me. That's a fact. I don't know why but I still dream of those places back in there. That's a fact. And further on towards the river a way now, uh...Broggs had a funeral home in there... Broggs Chambers had it. He had this furniture store and...and the funeral home together in there.

J: Now is...

HB: Where the bridge is now that comes across...?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: That was a...nothing but a big long corn field. I used to go in there a lot of times. It used to be a corn field.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Now Dan Chambers' home was across the street there from the bank on this side. You know the bank on this side, on the corner?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Well, his home was there on that, side.

J: On the railroad tracks side?

HB: Yeah. On the railroad side.

J: Okay.

HB: On that corner. Now I notice it's not there now.

J: Is that approximately where the post office is now?

HB: Yeah. Where the post office...I don't know. Well the post office used to be there in the back of the bank.

J: Did it? Uh-huh.

HB: Yeah. On the bank there.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See. That's where the post office used to be. In the back of the bank. I don't know if that's all one building or two buildings in there. I don't...I can't remember.

J: Between the time...

HB: I would just love it if my wife was feeling better if...I'd just love to go up there, and show you every inch of that place and show you just about how these two fellas got killed in Buskirk's Saloon.

J: Let's talk about that. I'm gonna make a note of that 'cause I want to ask you about that uh...and we ought to arrange for when your wife gets to feeling better, for you all to come over again this summer and take us around town and show us where things were.

HB: Yeah. I could show you, how in the back of Buskirk's building there, now in there were uh...comin'...now there's a parking lot in there, itn't (isn't) it?

J: Behind there?

HB: No. Uh...uh..on the river side.

J: Right. Uh-huh.

HB: Itn't (Isn't) it a parking lot?

J: Yeah. Big parking lot.

HB: Well, it used to be a building in there, see. I see it's not there. And It used to be a big water tank. A high water tank maybe about fifty feet high.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Now I don't know if that was Buskirk's tank for the motel... I mean for the hotel or if it was for the city of William...I mean of the city of Matewan.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See. I don't know but uh..it's changed so much, and there used to be a theater there in Buskirk's place but I see it's not there now, I don't think.

J: Yeah. There's a store in there.

HB: Is there a store in there?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Now, way back on the other end where Buskirk had his saloon now about fifteen or twenty years ago, uh...uh...Mr. Wren had a furniture store in there. He closed up, and gone now. He come here and of course he passed away and gone, see, but most of those fellows are gone now or they're not there seventy years ago and some of them were thirty, forty, fifty, sixty years old. They're not there. They're gone, so the good lord wants me here to tell you all this, I reckon.

J: Yep. That's right.

HB: Something...I don't know. He wants me here so I'm here but I feel wonderful. I really do.

J: Your memory's awfully clear. That's really...

HB: Not too well. (laughter)

J: Strikes me as being pretty clear.

HB: Huh?

J: It strikes me as clear.

HB: Well, but uh...

J: Let me ask you, between...oh go ahead.

HB: Huh?

J: Between the time that uh...the shooting happened, and mayor Testerman was shot and...and the time that Sid was killed, did he ever say anything to you about...about you witnessing the shooting?

HB: No.

J: Never mentioned it to you?

HB: No...no...no...no...he never...never hunt-uh. Never...never and you know, I seen very little of him then after that.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Sid, I really did.

J: I guess he was on trial for a long...long part of that time.

HB: Yeah...yeah...Uh-huh. So I never seen very much of uh...uh..Sid at that time. And in the back of Buskirk's building, Dr. Goings had a clinic there.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I don't know if you remember that or if you've been told that or not.

J: Is that Goings? Dr...

HB: Dr. Goings.

J: G.O.I.N.G.S?

HB: Uh-huh. Dr. Goings had a clinic there in the back. Had a big clinic there. And it was an alley between him...between Dr. Goings' place and Buskirk's saloon. There was an alley run right through there.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I don't know if it's still there or not. Now, I don't know, Is Leckie's uh..drugstore...is it a drugstore still there yet?

J: I believe in that building there is this little restaurant. Is that right on the end of the block?

HB: Back this way.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And back on the other end was uh...you know was Buskirk's saloon you know in that high place in there.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: On this way, you know, comin', you know, leaving Matewan, you know on the river side.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, I don't know. There was a drugstore, Leckie's drugstore.

J: Oh yeah. I think that building is an auto parts store now.

HB: Is it?

J: I think...I think that's the building.

HB: Okay. I noticed that when I was up there about a month ago some of those stores are empty. Some of those buildings, aren't they?

J: Yeah...yeah.

HB: Uh-huh. That used to be one busy place in there at that time. Yeah.

J: Yeah. What...what was it like on a busy night in Matewan back in the twenties?

HB: Well uh...there was a lot of people come in from Red Jacket, Thacker, see, and uh...and over in Kentucky like and (pause) over on uh...well they used to come in from Delbarton, you know...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Thacker, Matewan and they used to come in from Phelps, Kentucky, Freeburn, Delorme, all those places used to come in there.

J: Was Matewan sort of the center of the valley there?

HB: Uh-huh...Uh-huh. Yeah. So they used to come there and trade. My father done a good business in there; Schaeffer's, too.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: They both done a good business and uh...so they use to be a uh...when the trains used to come in on the other side of the station, there was uh...the N & W had a, what do you call it that..not a track, but where you could walk across the tracks. You know what I mean? (laughter)

J: I think so. Um...not like a little bridge across the tracks?

HB: Oh. No. No...no bridge at all. Just plain, but it had a...where you could walk across the tracks. You see those places.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Just like down here you know where you drive..but there was no cars at that time. The first Ford car that came into Matewan was uh...owned by the name of Louis Hatfield. That was the first Ford car that came in there.

J: Did he live in Matewan?

HB: Yeah. He lived in Matewan.'

J: What did he do for a living?

HB: And he run...well he run a taxi from Matewan to Red Jacket. Red Jacket to Matewan. Very little roads at that time, you know. He run a taxi.

J: What...when was that? About 1917...18.

HB: Uh...about maybe a little later than that. Maybe about fifteen, I think.

J: Okay.

HB: He's dead now. He drank himself to death.

J: Uh-huh. Was there much uh...now I know West Virginia went dry in about 1913. Was there much bootleggin' in town?

HB: I was thinkin' about that today before you got here see. I was thinkin' about it. Was it in thirteen or twelve? I don't know. I can't remember.

J: Twelve or thirteen. I'm not really sure either.

HB: I remember when it went dry and there was a lot going on and a lot of shooting was going on.

J: Shooting?

HB: People were shooting there uh... whataya call, celebrating, I don't know what they were doing but they was a lot of shooting going on and uh...Ackerman was chief police at that time see...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Now that's when he killed...that's when both of them got killed up there in Buskirk's saloon.

J: Yeah. Tell me about that 'cause another lady mentioned that to me but couldn't remember the de...the detail.

HB: Well, I was much younger then, see. I must have been maybe nine or ten or something like that and uh...I happened to be out in the front of...on the other side of the street you know, see, and uh...so Adams was in Buskirk's saloon, now Bob Buskirk, he was a brave man hisself you know, he didn't take no foolishness either. Now he really mean it. He was a wealthy man.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, he was wealthy man and he didn't take no foolishness either but I imagine, but now this fellow, John Adams was a man about six foot two, weighed about maybe around a hundred and ninety pounds or more. Mean. So he was cuttin' up to much in there and they..I guess they must have told him to get out, see, and he didn't do it so they sent word for Ackerman. He was the chief police at that time to come down and see what he could do with them.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: So he come down you know, I follered him. I really did. I follered him.

J: From your father's store?

HB: Yeah. From the store there. I seen he liked me and I liked him too pretty well, you now, and uh...so I follered him and went on down to the street and uh...Buskirk had two big large plates glasses. I don't know if they're still in there or not.

J: Uh...I'm not really sure.

HB: I don't know either. They might have taken them out now. I don't know. They might have changed but he had two large plate glasses and Buskirk had uh...a bar. A long bar. It looked like maybe about maybe fifteen...eighteen feet long. On this side, facin' the street...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: On that side. And he had four or five pool tables in there.

J: In the back?

HB: In the...yeah, well right in the you know, in the front.

J: Oh. I see. Okay.

HB: You know, in the front, yeah and uh...so uh...I seen uh... Ackerman went in and talked with 'em, seemed like. Just like you see in a movie. I don't know, you know western picture, you know, so he went in there and talked with him and the first thing you know I guess he couldn't do nothing with him or something so maybe they...argument. I was outside, see, and there was other people in...inside too and I seen them begin to move away, see, and they knew this fellow. He was mean, see. Adams was mean. He really was. So I guess they couldn't agree so they got behind each table, pool table, and they began to shoot one another.

J: Huh.

HB: And finally they killed...so, both of them got killed.

J: They killed each other?

HB: Yeah. They killed each other. They really did. Honestly.

J: Did anybody else get hit, or was everybody cleared out by that time?

HB: No...no...no. Everybody beat it away, see. Everybody beat it away. But uh...now Ackerman, he wasn't...he wasn't a mean fellow but he...he was chief and he wanted to, you know, things straightened out. But now, this other fellow he was just mean, that's all, and uh...he had the right name, John Adams. (laughing) So um..I seen that so then I beat it on back to the store and I don't know what they done with them anymore. I guess they took them out there and uh...so um...let's see, who was squire that time, Squire Hatfield, I believe, was squire at that time, I think.

J: Was what now?

HB: Squire Hatfield I believe he was Squire at that time.

J: What is that?

HB: Uh...well a J.P. (Justice of the Peace)

J: Oh. Okay. Squire like S.Q.U.I.R.E.

HB: Uh-huh. At that time they called them squire but uh...there ...today they call him J.P.'s, see, that's that...So that's it and uh...I seen a lot..a lot goin' on in there, I really did. But people used to come into the town at that time and they used to carry their saddlebag. They used to bring well, there was no cars in at that time so they used to come on their horses. I remember two brothers used to wait...always come in and they were Hatfields. They were nice, and they used to trade a lot in the store with my father.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And they used to come...they used to bring saddlebags with them see, and uh...tie their horse up out of town somewheres and come into town and do their shopping, you know, and go back so um...I remember that time I tell you the truth about it. And uh...so.

J: Did the stores downtown accept uh...scrip from the coal companies or...or did they deal strictly with cash?

HB: No...no...no...there wasn't no scrip or any kind at that time but now. There was a lot of union men there. Now my father always used to patronize the union men.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: He really did and uh...I think that's why Sid maybe always come around the store. He was a union man himself and uh...my father used to help them out a whole lot uh...you know, give 'em credit and carry them on their books. You know what I mean and give them stuff like that and uh... I knew quite a few of the union men but I didn't...can't recall their names.

J: How 'bout uh...I'll name a few names and see if you recall some of these guys. How bout Charlie Kiser. Did you know him?

HB: Who?

J: Charlie Kiser.

HB: I know CHarlie Kiser. Yeah.

J: What sort of a fellow was he?

HB: I don't...well he was a union man. Charlie Kiser was. He was a union man. I don't know how long that man's been dead but now he's been dead a long, long time. Charlie Kiser. Yes, I remember him and remember his wife see, but now it's been so long I can't picture him now but I imagine he was a man, maybe about from what I can picture a little about him, maybe around maybe five ten and a half or five eleven or something like that. Maybe on the heavyset side a little bit. I can picture him that far. His wife was a little small woman I remember and uh...that's all. And um...there was some tough people back in them days I'll tell you the truth, back in them times. There really was tough people and I...I don't know if they ever had that about uh...these uh...these three Italian fellows robbin' the uh...the bank at uh..not a bank but the payroll up at Majestic?

J: Tell me about that. I've heard one person mention that but I don't know any details.

HB: Is that right? (laughter)

J: Yeah.

HB: Well, I remember that. Greenway Hatfield was sheriff at that time, see, and let me see, what year was that now, I don't know but that's...that's been a long time. Long before this shooting. Long before the shooting and uh...there was three Italian fellows. They robbed the payroll from the Majestic...Over thirty thousand dollars I believe it was, and they hid themselves up in the hills. In the mountains. So Greenway Hatfield, he was sheriff and he got a...a posse, you know, and uh...so uh...I don't know how many men it was that he got let's see uh...uh...from what I understand there was about twenty-five or thirty men all went up there and they all had guns. And they had guns too, see, these three Italian fellows.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: More like Black Hands they called them at that time you know what I mean.

J: The Black Hands (Italian underground society: precursor to organized crime). Yeah. Uh-huh.

HB: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The Black Hands at that time and uh...so they got uh..so they went up to the hills to get them and they begin to fire on them and the uh...these uh...you know these Italian fellows begin to fire on them and they fired back, and they were behind a big log when they were doin' it, and one of them at the end, let's see who said that, one of the fellows, Dr. Amburger ...Dr. Amburger was in that uh...in that too and uh...all from Williamson. There wasn't anybody form Matewan in it at all. All from Williamson. (in the posse)

J: Uh-huh.

HB: So they went up there and one of the Italians got up on the log at the end of it and begin to crow like a rooster and flap his hands like you know...you know, like wings and crowed and they got up and killed him. I guess he got tired of livin', so they killed them both...all three of them, I mean.

J: Shot 'em all right there?

HB: Yeah. They shot 'em all right there and got the money. But uh...that was at that time. Yeah, there was a lot of men from Williamson here went up there at that time see.

J: Now Green...was Greenway Hatfield the sheriff of...of Mingo County?

HB: He was the sheriff of Mingo County at that time, you know. Now he's got a son still living here. And his name is Shayde.

J: Living in Williamson?

HB: Yeah. Now I tell you where you might find him at and you might tell him that I sent you or what if you want to or not but he has a filling station, well it looks like a filling station but it isn't. You know where the um...the Elks is?

J: I don't but I could...I could find it.

HB: It's straight across the street from the Elks.

J: Right downtown?

HB: Huh?

J: Is that right downtown?

HB: Yeah. Right downtown. It's on uh...Second Avenue. Shayde must be a man...I know he's way...he's older than I am I think. Maybe the same age. Eighty-seven, eighty-eight I guess.

J: Is he...is he still runnin' a business?

HB: Well, he runs sort of a little parking place in there for people to park his car you know. He's just gotta small place in there and uh...that's just to keep him occupied, I guess.

J; Uh-huh.

HB: See, just to keep him occupied.

J: But his father was the sheriff?

HB: Uh-huh. His father was the sheriff.

J: Do you remember who succeeded Ackerman as police chief after he was shot?

HB: No I don't. No I don't. I don't...don't remember.

J: What kind of a man was Mayor Testerman?

HB: Well, he was a big heavyset man. I imagine uh...Mr. Testerman maybe weighed about maybe two thirty, two-forty, something like that and uh...maybe about, well looks like maybe about six feet maybe a little less. Something like that.

J: Uh-huh. I...

HB: He was a good jewelry man.

J: Uh-huh. Somebody told...well actually I don't know if somebody told me this or I read this, that he moved to town...he came to town as a gambler.

HB: That I don't know. It possibly could be now I don't know but uh...he came there and opened up a jewelry shop and fixed watches, you know. He was a watchmaker too. He...jewelry store and that's all.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: So I don't know. Seemed to be a pretty nice fella, see, and uh...they lived, their home...Testerman's home of course it's not there now, but Testerman's home was down there you know where the bridge is at...that new bridge is?

J: That goes across the river?

HB: Yeah.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Was along in there. See all that's been torn down. If was there I could show you every...what...what's there and what isn't there and uh...on this side facin' the railroad track there was a lot of houses there and now there's a hospital in there isn't it? On the railroad side facing...Isn't there a big brick building there? A hospital or something?

J: Uh...I really don't know. I know there's a clinic on down the road.

HB: Yeah. A clinic. You know leavin' Matewan.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: You know, going west you know.

J: Yeah. I know where you mean.

HB: They used to be a lot of homes in there. Mr. Blankenship had a home in there and the two brothers, the Schaeffer brothers had uh..had two homes in there and uh...and a good many more. Now Mr. Blankenship, I don't know if that girl is still living or not but if you could find out, her name is Geraldine Blankenship. Now I don't know if she's still livin' or not.

J: Geraldine?

HB: Uh-huh. Geraldine Blankenship. His father was the agent there in Matewan. Now, she had a brother named George but now I don't know is he's dead...if he's livin' or not.

J: Now you said her father was the agent. What's that?

HB: Was the agent there and he had a telegraph machine you know...

J: Oh. I see.

HB: You know what I mean and he sold tickets and he took care of the whole station, see.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: And um... so uh...there was a lot...a lot going on there but uh...and that old jail is still over there yet.

J: Now that's a...is that a block building?

HB: I don't know if it was a block or a...or a...I can't recall.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I imagine it was maybe.

J: And it was right, sort of right behind where the old railroad station...

HB: Yeah. Uh-huh. Right behind it see, they used to be a siding in there. The railroad company use to run a siding in there to uh...come in the back of the station.

J: Uh-huh.

J: First I want to make sure I get the spelling of your name right. Is it B.E.R.M.A.N?

HB: Uh-huh. B.E.R.M.A.N.

J: Okay.

HB: Harry Berman. B.E.R.M.A.N.

J: Do you remember a flood in 1917 in Matewan?

HB: Yes. I remember that, and the ice was packed and jammed there. Now that was in the winter. That was in 1918.

J: 1918?

HB: 1918.

J: Okay.

HB: And everybody had the flu at that time and they didn't know what to do with it so they brought some doctors in from Kansas City. (laughter) Topeka, Kansas.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I don't know what his name was.

J: Now that was the big flu epidemic all over the world I guess?

HB: Yeah, All over at that time, yeah, in 1918 and uh....that was a hard...hard winter. Ice was jammed up in that river fifteen, twenty feet at that time. Yeah, I remember that. And cold as it could be.

J: Did the flu epidemic hit Matewan pretty hard?

HB: Yeah. Yeah, my brother he got but now we didn't get it and then it turned into pneumonia and he was laid up and then that's when we got this doctor from Kansas City came there. He straightened him out.

J: Oh, he got better?

HB: Uh-huh. He got better. He straightened him out. Probably he was about six-foot...he was about my height...just about my height.

J: Now how long did your father stay in business in Matewan?

HB: In Matewan? Well, I think we came here, after my Uncle Shine sold out...you know closed the store up in Williamon [sic] here...then that's when he came in...my father did...moved from Matewan to Williamson here...see. So uh...his sister and Mr. Shine then moved to Baltimore see. And then they--now the building they're in now where Dickie Hatfield has his where Sporting Goods there on Third Avenue, that's where he moved into and that's where Mr. Shine had his store of course that store done burned down and he rebuild it again...my father did...

J: Your father did?

HB: Yeah, he built it again. But uh-huh...we didn't stay to long in Matewan after that.

J: Now when you moved to Williamson did...were you working with your father? Did you stay in that business?

HB: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh. So we all worked in there together. We had a good business here in Williamson...good business.

J: How long did you stay in business then?

HB: Well, he stayed in business for quite a while...I think they had a fire there I think...and they...I don't know I can't recall now...but now. I know they had a fire there. I left...see...and uh...I got married...the wife and I and we left there. So then they had a fire and they burnt out everything they had there.

J: Now, is this in Williamson?

H: Uh-huh. In Williamson.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Then they rebuilt back again see, and then they...when they... when they built back, they called there [sic] store Poor Man's Paradise and they sold stuff cheap, right and left. They done a big uh... whale of a business.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I mean a whale of a business! They took in over half a million dollars a year business in there, or maybe more. They used to have fellows that come in there. They had little grocery stores out in the country? Use to come and buy things that they need. Clothing, shoes, groceries, everything in there. They really done a big business and finally...then the old man, he passed away. Then my mother, she passed away first and then he did and then the two boys, they decided they just close up and leave so uh....that's then they left and they went to Baltimore see. And uh...well, now wait, one of the boys went to Florida and uh...he lost his wife. That was Irving (Irvin). That was the oldest boy and then the... (tape cuts off for a long period of time) (Mr. Berman requested deletion of material in this blank section: Irrelevant to narrative in any case)

J: Your family was of the Jewish faith. Is that correct?

HB: Huh?

J: Was your family...your family was of...of the Jewish faith?

HB: Yeah. Uh-huh.

J: That's correct?

HB: Yeah.

J: Was there a uh...synagogue in Matewan or...or a...

HB: No. No synagogue there hunt-uh. There wasn't enough Jewish people there.

J: I was gonna say. How many Jewish families were there in the area?

HB: Uh. There...there were just two. Us and Schaeffers.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Schaeffer brothers, see. That's all. Them only two families there were Jews see.

J: Had your father left Russia as a result of any type of persecution or...

HB: Well, at that time, Russia uh...you know, at that time he used to tell us what was goin' on in Russia at that time. A lot of uh... "Bolsheviks" vulture weeks you know, I think you call them "Bolsheviks" vulture weeks at that time. I don't...what do you call those fellows that ride those horses?

J: Oh. The Cossacks.

HB: Yeah. See. They used to come in there and take what chickens they had. If they had any cows, they'd take them. You know what I mean? They would rob people of things that they had see, and that was under the Czar, I don't who was Czar at that time but that was way back in nineteen, I mean eighteen something I believe, at that time. I don't know. I had a book there of that and I don't know what become of it now Russia tellin' who was Czar at that time. It was under a Czar.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Nicholas or who...whoever he was. I don't know but anyway, they used to come in at that time and uh,..take things that people had you know, take it away see, and uh...so uh...he left so I imagine there still..he still has some people there, I don't know, I trying to get a family tree see if maybe if we could...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: Find if they's any more Bermans over there or not. But anyway, he came to this country when he was thirteen and he picked up pots and pans and uh..clothing and he went out through the country and he never had no cars or nothin'...or nothin'. He just walked, see, out in the country and he sold what he had 'til he got up enough money...at that time, goods were cheap...

J: Uh-huh.

HB: See, you could take a hundred dollars then and you could buy (laughing) a heck of a lot of stuff, see, so finally he uh...come to Keystone and he opened up a business there and uh...my mother, she was a very attractive woman. She was a nice lookin' woman. She really was. She really was and she had two sisters, one named Katie and one named Kate. Now I know that's tell that on the... there. I don't have to.

J: Okay.

HB: And uh...I

J: These are your...your, they're aunts of yours your talking about?

HB: Yeah. Uh-huh. And uh...

J: They played in Vaudeville with the [Barry] 'Mores?

HB: Yes uh...they played with um...Ethel Barrimore [sic] on stage now... this is on stage and this was at the old Hippodrowe Theater in New York at that time. That must been maybe when, 1898 or 1900, or something like that back in them days, I think.

J: Wow.

HB: See and uh...so um...now, Lionel Barrimore was uh..was on the stage too. I don't know if you recall or remember his name..

J: Oh, the name...

HB: Lionel Barrimore.

J: Yeah. Uh-huh.

HB: Uh-huh. Yeah. Now they was another Barrimore. John Barrimore but he wasn't there, but they were all good actors. They were all good actors. Now, on my father's side, they was uh...her...his brother...his brother had uh...two or three children that also played on Vaudeville see. That's a fact, so they were all actors in there. And by the way, they wanted me to go to New York at one time and to take up acting. I wouldn't...

J: Not interested, huh?

HB: No, I wasn't interested at the time to take...

J: Growing up as the uh...one of the only...a member of one of only two Jewish families in Matewan, did you ever experience any kind of hostility or curiosity from the other people around you...the region?

HB: No. No. I didn't. Hunt-uh. No. Uh...no, they seemed to be Okay. We seemed to get along alright.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: There. They seem to get along alright. Never had any problem with them but in some places you know, people, you know, didn't like Jews, you know, but we always seemed to get along alright.

J: That's one thing I've heard...most people seem to remember that...that the different religions and ethnic groups got along pretty well in...down in Matewan.

HB: Yeah...yeah. I remember one time, now, that's not on the tape is it? What I'm gonna tell you?

J: Hunt-uh. No. (tape cuts off)

Matewan Oral History Project Collection