Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Tom Chafin Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mike one. Narrator's microphone. June 21, 1989. (tape cuts off) Sound check on mike two. Interviewer's microphone. June 21, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Developing Center preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Tom Chafin. Former sheriff of Mingo County. It is approximately 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 21, 1989. We're in the offices of the Matewan Development Center. Okay, Mr. Chafin, this is by...by means of background if you could tell me your full name, when and where you were born, and something about your parents.

Tom Chafin: Uh...my full name is Tom Columbus Chafin. I was born and...reared in...on Mate Creek...Meador, West Virginia...Was a...a post office at that time.

J: What year were you born?

TC: 1911.

J: Ok. You said that. Alright. And what were your parents names?

TC: Allen Chafin and Lydia Hatfield Chafin.

J: Ok. And what kind of work did your father do?

TC: He worked at the mines ont [sic] he outside at the mines. Coal...we called it tipple on the tipple.

J: Um-hum. And for what company did he work?

TC: Uh...Red Jacket Coal Corporation. I believe Red Jacket Coal Corporation was uh...uh...had started in 1898, I believe it started in 1898. was sold out to Island Creek Coal Company in the...I'd say the fifties, sixties maybe. First of the sixties. Red Jacket Coal Corporation.

J: And how long did your father stay with them?

TC: With the Red Jacket Coal Corporation?

J: Um-hum.

TC: Well, I'd say...I'd say thirty years.

J: Did you have any brother's [sic] or sisters?

TC: Oh yeah. I had eight sisters and two brothers and myself. Eleven of us children.

J: And where did you come along in the uh...in the ages of your brothers and sisters?

TC: Well I had uh...seven older than me.

J: Ok. Seven older, then there was you then there was three younger than you then.

TC: Un-hun.

J: Ok. How bout your mother's family. Were they uh...were they local people?

TC: Yes. Ellison Hatfield. She was Ellison Hatfield's daughter.

J: Ok.

TC: And they were raised on Mate Creek.

J: Ok. Ok. Let's go ahead and just follow that line then cause that's one thing were particularly interested in uh...tell me about Ellison Hatfield. And of course Ellison Hatfield was one of the participants in the early days of the so called Hatfield and McCoy feud.

TC: He's the one that the McCoy's killed. Uh...he live up...he lived above Red Jacket on...up Mate Creek uh...at the mouth of a hollow they call Double Camp Holler. Double Camp Holler. I...uh..he came down to Matewan here uh...and got with some of his friends and they had a saloon here. It was called a saloon then, not the...not the liquor store like we call it.

J: Do you have any idea where that saloon was?

TC: Uh...the saloon was close to where the liquor store is now.

J: Ok.

TC: I'm...I'm sure it was in the same building. THat's Buskirk building. And he...he got with some of his friends and uh...they got to drinking and was a having an election across the river in Pike County, Kentucky. Just across the river here and he said to them said uh...some of his friends said let's go over and see how the elections goin' and when they got over there, they got into it with them and he was cut all to pieces with knives. He didn't die in Kentucky. THey loaded him up and hauled him back in a wagon which they didn't have any cars or trucks, pick-up trucks, or anything at that day and time. They hauled him back through the river up here at the upper end of Matewan and took him to Warm Holler. Now this is Warm Holler straight across from the bank on the right goin' down there. You go across the railroad tracks.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Uncle Anse Ferrell lived there. That was Ellison's uncle. Uncle Anse Ferrell lived there in a big old log house and they took Ellison there to his house that evening and he stayed there all that evening, all that night, and all day the next day and died the next evening. Just about dark. But in the mean time now, the Hatfield's captured the three McCoy boys that they said did the killin' of Ellison. Cuttin' him up with knives. They captured them and took them up to a place they call North Matewan just out of Matewan here. You might know where North Matewan is. They had and old school house there at the mouth of Rutherford Hollow. Now it wasn't called Rutherford Holler then, it was called Reliford Holler.

J: Reliford?

TC: Reliford Holler.

J: Is there a spelling for that?

TC: No. I don't think so. But they didn't call it Rutherford. It was Reliford. And hit (it) is now with the old timers like me. Even..even to me I call it...

J: Somebody mentioned it to me the other day.

TC: I call it Reliford. Reliford Holler. But Rutherford is the right name. Rutherford. R.U.T.H.E.R.F.O.R.D. And they had an old school house there at the mouth of Rutherford Holler and that's where they kept the three McCoy boys. All this evening, all night tonight, all day tomorrow, until tomorrow evening and they brought him back down here, took him across the river and then a little drain, I call it instead of a holler. It's not a holler, it's just a drain where water runs out where you go up to the uh...radio station. That's where they tied them to three papaw bushes. Now, we don't have any papaw bushes around like we used to. We used to have whole orchards of them but they all disappeared. Why, they was papaws everywhere You could pick up a bushel of papaws anywhere when I was a boy. But you don't even see a papaw tree any more. They said they tied them to three papaw bushes and killed all three of them.

J: And this was after Ellison died?

TC: THey waited until Elison died. Say he died this evening and they went up there and got them and took them over there I believe the next morning.

J: Who were some of the Hatfields and...associated to the Hatfields who were involved in this? The...the executions of the...the McCoys and the...holding the McCoys boys?

TC: Well, to..to be exact, I'd say Cap...Cap was the head man. He was Devil Anse's oldest son. Now I know, myself personally, three different men that Cap killed. He killed one here in Matewan.

J: Was this uh...in connection uh..with the feud or other affairs?

TC: I...I uh...don't believe it was with the feud. I tell you what happened, his name was John Rutherford. The man that Cap Hatfield killed and he killed him up in the upper end of Matewan here. You go through the underpass and go up, you know right where you turn, just before you get to the old W & E Chevrolet sales.

J: Um-hum.

TC: There was a store there right there on the street. He killed him right there. His name was John Rutherford. I tell you why he killed him. I had an uncle, my daddy's brother by the name of John Chafin, now he finally , on the end, he was a merchant up a little place called Newtown. That's close to Meador. THey called it Newtown then.

J: Un-hun.

TC: John Chafin and uh...he was a brother to my father well uh...this man that Cap killed up here on the street had shot John. He'd shot him about four or five times course John got well but he walked this way. Shot him through and through. They wudn't no doctors back then and they just, I don't know how they doctored him. But anyhow, he got well from it. He lived.

J: Bout when was this? Do you have an idea of the year?

TC: Uh...it must have been about 1990 some...some where.

J: 1890.

TC: I mean 1890 some.

J: Ok.

TC: Somewhere. And uh...he lived...he lived to be an old man John Chafin did and run a grocery store and I use..finally he bought a car and I was his driver when I was about fifteen or sixteen and uh...Cap decided that he would kill John Rutherford because he had shot his cousin, John Chafin.

J: Ok.

TC: Now that happened, that's one that I know Cap killed and he killed...he killed two or three more.

J: Cap ever come up against the law for that killing?

TC: I...I don't believe so. I don't believe so. Now that happened right up here. They used to say uh...you get him. Send you out to see him with your gun, you go get him and I'll see you across Tug River safe if you'll do it. If you'll kill him. If you get across Tug...Tug River safe, your safe from the law. They can't come over there and get you.

J: I see.

TC: Now that's the way it was back then.

J: Did you ever in Kentucky then?

TC: Um-hum. They were goin' up, I don't know whether I ought to tell this or not. This is on record.

J: Sure tell it.

TC: They were going up uh...Pigeon Creek a courtin' and old man by the name of John L. Justice, well he was a young man at that time but he was an old man to me cause he was Justice of the Peace and two boys, and myself was gonna have a chicken fry one night with our girlfriends up in the head of Mate Creek.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And we was goin' to old man John Diamonds place uh...to his chicken house and gonna steal two of his hens to take up there and cook you know that night and they run off and left me so he got warrants for all three of us and I went before John L. Justice and I was just a boy. I was in school and uh...I proved that they run off and left me. That I didn't go with them. He said "Well I'm gonna hold that against you. If you ever do anything else, I'm gonna give you double time." So I come clear.

J: He let you off on that one huh?

TC: Yeah, he let me off.

J: Did he catch you with the chickens?

TC: No. I...I...I didn't have the chickens. They run off and left me. I couldn't even go with them. We were all, we had girlfriends. We were courtin' I guess.

J: So did that have anything to do with gettin' you interested in politics?

TC: No, I don't believe so.

J: That came later.

TC: I don't believe so. I..I was uh...I was a coal miner for fourteen years from uh...March the eighteenth, 1928 until October of 1941. I was a coal miner.

J: Did you work for Red Jacket also?

TC: I worked for Red Jacket all the time. And uh...they had me to serve as a democrat election commissioner and at the mines, it was mostly republican and I was a democrat and so they switched me to the night shift and I quit and went into grocery business and I had a general merchandise store and I mean I had one of the best businesses of anybody in the country around here.

J: Where was that store?

TC: That was in Newtown. All of the Big..Big Creek or Beech Creek now, I don't know whether you was ever...you ever been over there or not. It's a big creek. Hit's (it') uh...say it's twelve, fifteen miles long and it's just full of people and they all worked at REd Jacket and if you lived on Beech Creek and you worked at Red Jacket, and I lived on Beech Creek, and I'd have a pick-up truck with a cab on the back and have seats in it, I...I would haul about ten of you fellows to the mines and back cause you didn't want to ride your car with them work clothes on and you would pull in at my store with those ten men and you all would buy me out. On credit. On credit, all of it now. I never did lose...never did lose a dime.

J: So most your work was with the...well it was most of the people livin around there was workin' in the mines anyway. That's who you traded with. WHat was the name of your store?

TC: Miner's Tavern.

J: Miner's Tavern. Alright (laughing)

TC: You don't remember it do you?

J: Said you uh...now Miner's Tavern, did you also serve up thing to drink there?

TC: Oh, I hate to tell this. I had beer. It was a beer tavern too.

J: Un-hun.

TC: It was a general merchandise store. Feed...feed was the biggest thing then. You couldn't walk the road. Everybody had cows and if you'd have went to the grocery store and asked for a gallon of milk, they wouldn't know what you was talkin' about.

J: Hum, cause people...

TC: They wouldn't know what you was...what do you mean?

J: People had their own milk huh?

TC: And everybody had cows. One and two and three cows. Well they would buy hay, cracked corn, I don't know whether you know what, you and George Ann know what cracked corn is, middlin', I don't know whether you know what that is?

J: Hun-hun. What are they?

TC: Dairy feed. Dairy feed that they'd feed the cows and the horses and they'd buy a ton at a time and I delivered it. tHat's where I made the biggest money.

J: Un-hun. So you had a delivery truck that you took all these around with?

TC: Yeah. And we talk about cow manure bein' out in the road. You couldn't walk up and down the road for the cow manure. Everybody'd go cow huntin' every evening.

J: Was it a paved road or a gravel road?

TC: Gravel road. Yeah. Hum?

J: What'd you say cracked corn was?

TC: Cracked corn.

J: It's a feed?

TC: Yeah.

J: It's used for feed?

TC: Hit (it) is corn and it's cracked uh..it's uh...I don't know, put in some kind of a meal. Ground up...ground up. Cracked corn. That's...that's full grains of corn bein' cracked up. Hit (it) was cracked corn.

J: What was the price of a bottle of beer in those days? Say...say in the late thirties.

TC: Uh...I can tell you that good. And I don't know what it is now because I don't fool with it now. I'm sorry, let me put this in here, I'm sorry that I ever had uh..empty beer can on my property let alone beer. I uh...Budweiser uh...now wait a minute, we got another one, Budweiser was one of the best. It was fifteen cents and the others was Fall City and oh, it was ten cents.

J: How bout West Virginia beer. Did you sell that?

TC: It was ten cents. It was ten cents. Yeah, I sold West Virginia. Fall City and Schlitz was fifteen cents. I couldn't think of Schlitz. That was fifteen cents a bottle or a can. I don't believe it come in cans then. I don't believe they had cans. I believe it was bottles.

J: All bottles.

TC: Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was.

J: Ok.

TC: And they had slot machines on almost every counter.

J: Slot machines?

TC: Slot machines.

J: Legal or illegal?

TC: Illegal. They had em.

J: Did you have em in your store?

TC: Yeah. I sure did.

J: Now how did you manage to uh...how did you manage to do that without uh...without gettin' in trouble?

TC: My wife was a gambler. She'd come in and open my cash register and get the quarters out and play and if she'd hit the jackpot, she'd put it all in her pocket and keep it. (laughing) We...she could here me now. IF that would come out she'd blow up.

J: Extra income huh? How did you manage...how did places manage to run those slots if their illegal now?

TC: I don't know. I don't know back then. I was just a boy. I don't know. Huh?

J: Some...but most places had them huh like restaurants?

TC: Yeah. Restaurants. Something like that. They had slot machines. Just about anywhere and everywhere. Huh?

J: That's alright. Now these slots, were these what people think of slot machines as now, like the one arm bandit was it the same type thing?

TC: Yeah. Nickel, dime and quarter. Nickel, dime, and quarter.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And then they had another one, horses on it that you run. I forget what you call that. We had one of those too. Then we had a big...we had a big slot machine and you had uh...uh...what's called places where you could put your nickel in to play to the...the victrola in there in the other room where the...where we had the dance hall.

J: Un-hun. Oh you say you did have a dance hall?

TC: We had a dance hall yeah.

J: WHere did you get your musicians from?

TC: Uh...we had this big jute box mostly.

J: I see. And uh...recorded music.

TC: Yeah. Um-hum.

J: How about down town Matewan did the...did the bars and restaurant..or the bars in downtown Matewan have slots also?

TC: I believe they did. I believe they did now I'm not gonna say for sure but I'm almost positive that they did.

J: Un-hun.

TC: I know we had them up there.

J: Ok. This...I want to get uh...or make a note of this and...and talk about these some more because were interested in gettin' a social profile of the thirties, forties, and fifties in Matewan, but right now we'll stick to uh...some chronological order here. uh...and if you would, I'd like you to back track in and tell me a little bit more about Cap Hatfield and well, devil I...do you have a personal memory of Devil Anse. I know you have been to his house when you were a boy.

TC: No.

J: You can't remember anything directly about him?

TC: I've been to his house. I know where his house is. I knew what kind of house it was. It was a log house and it had a window in that end of it and a window in this end of it and it was across the creek. I could show you right where it is on Island Creek over there and I..I can remember goin' over there with my grandfather, Mose Chafin, now, he was a brother to Devil Anse's wife, Aunt 'Vicy, 'Vicy Chafin and uh...we'd go over and see Aunt 'Vicy after Uncle Anse had...had died.

J: Un-hun.

TC: I believe he died in 1921 and I was ten years old when he died.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And when I would go over there with him, probably I was twelve or thirteen or something like that, after Uncle Anse had died and we'd ride a horse. I'd ride on the hind and my grandfather, Mose Chafin. And I could tell you exactly how to go. We'd go up Mate Creek across the hill into Beech Creek and from Beech Creek into Pigeon Creek and Pigeon Creek into Island Creek. NOw that's exactly...

J: And uh...'Vicy was still living at that time?

TC: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um-hum.

J: So you knew her then?

TC: Yeah. She was a pretty big fat woman. She wudn't too big and fat. She was about a say, hundred and sixty. something like that I'm guessin'. I'm gonna guess it. About a hundred and sixty pound. Anyhow, she was a big fat woman.

J: Now, Cap lived on up into...to be an old man?

TC: Yeah. Un-hun. Willis is the last man that...last one to die.

J: He was the son of Devil Anse also?

TC: Yeah...yeah.. I was with him uh...uh...birthday uh...party for Allen Hatfield on Beech Creek. That was his cousin. Allen was Alias's boy and he was Ellison's boy. Willis was. That made them first cousins and Willis was the only Hatfield left on Island Creek so we got him to come to that...Allen's boy's, Estil Hatfield got him to come to...over to the birthday party and I believe Truman went with me. Seems like I think it was Truman. He died in seventy-eight. I can tell you when he died.

J: Willis?

TC: Willis died. Last man last uh..child that Devil Anse had died in seventy-eight. 1978.

J: Now, Truman's your son?

TC: Yeah.

J: That you mentioned. Ok.

TC: Yeah. Truman's my son. Yeah. I got his picture there.

J: Ok. You mentioned goin' to school awhile ago. Where did you go to school?

TC: Matewan.

J: Matewan elementary school?

TC: No. I went to Matewan High School. I went to Newtown grade uh...grade school.

J: Um-hum.

TC: We had a Newtown grade school.

J: Who were some of your teachers over there? Do you remember?

TC: Yeah. The first teacher I ever had we had a school house, a big one room school house up in Double Camp Holler and her name was Nancy Murphy. Now that was my first teacher. And I tell you when that was. It was in 1920 and twenty-one when so many people died with the flu, we called it then, influenza, they died all over this country and all my family had it but we didn't lose anybody and everybody had it and was down in the bed except my teacher and me. And I learned to milk my cows that...that time. They had it for about three months in the winter time and the snow was knee deep and I know we'd take shovels and shovel us a road to the barn.

J: To get to the cows?

TC: To get to the cows and I learned to milk. I think we had three cows. I learned to milk.

J: So you taught yourself what every body else was down with the flu?

TC: I taught yeah. Nancy helped me...Nancy my teacher helped me. Nancy Murphy. She was a single woman and uh...finally she got married and married a man by the name of Ed...Ed Toler. Ed Toler like Joe Toler. Ed Toler.

J: Now teacher's at that time, uh..I know it use to be the custom for teachers to mourn with different families around the area.

TC: Yeah. Well, she stayed with us.

J: She did?

TC: Yeah.

J: Ok.

TC: She stayed right with us.

J: So that's why she was around to help you with the milkin'?

TC: She's just one of the family.

J: Tell me some more about that flu epidemic. Uh...I know like you said, well actually, like you said, I guess it was a world wide flu epidemic who...how did they treat it around here. Who were the doctors?

TC: Double Camp Holler up there is about uh...two miles long. I'd say two miles. I'm gonna guess two miles. Anywhere between a mile and a half and two miles and they was uh...one, two, three, four they's about nine houses in that two miles and just above our house they was a man by the name of Alvis Ferrell. A.L.V.I.S. Ferrell and his wife was named Cordella. They both died with the flu. I can remember that. Now I was about ten...ten, eleven years old and other people up there died with it but I can't remember and they just died all over Matewan, Red Jacket, Beech Creek, everywhere that you'd hear, they were dying with the flu but they wasn't any of my family and I had a large family. I told you I had eleven. There's eleven of us children. Eleven children and...

J: Do you remember the doctors?

TC: Uh...the doctors we had was mostly midwives.

J: Oh, is that right?

TC: Now that's the truth. She would come to see and uh...they had a tea that you could go out in. I don't think you can find any catnip now, C.A.T.N.I.P. catnip. Did you ever hear of it?

J: Yep.

TC: But I don't know...I don't think you could ever find any. I think it's gone.

J: It could be. I don't know.

TC: It used to be out in the hills everywhere here and she'd have them to...fix that and then uh...uh...she would have them to mack tea of...of a yick...out of yellow root they called. it. That was something you dig with ginseng you know and just thing's like that was all we had.

J: So that's how she...she came to treat the people with the flu with these hot teas...

TC: Yeah. Yeah.

J: Did she charge anything?

TC: I don't believe so. No. I don't think so. I don't think she did.

J: Who was the midwife?

TC: and I'll tell you something else that they would use to put on your chest, ground hog grease.

J: Ground hog grease?

TC: They would pour it in bottles and boy when you got that ground hog grease on you, it would take two bars of soap to get it off.

J: Is that right?

TC: Yeah. I got some on... Ed bought me a new suit. THat was something you didn't...you didn't see back in say sixty-five years ago. You didn't see no new suits, for boys especially.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And uh...I had spilled it on my coat here...

J: You got ground hog grease on your coat?

TC: Oh yeah. It ruined it and then here I am sixty five years later tellin' you all...you and George Ann about it.

J: Did you all eat ground hogs?

TC: I think so, yeah. See this scar right here.

J: Un-hun.

TC: Can you see that?

J: Yeah.

TC: I was in uh...third grade at old Double Camp school when broke the window out and made that little scar right there. I was about say nine years old.

J: What...yeah...why'd you break...how come you broke the window?

TC: I don't know. We let it down and let it slam.

J: Oh it's accidental?

TC: Yeah. And it was old anyhow and it just fell out. THe window fell out.

J: How many kids were in this school, approximately?

TC: I would say they was twenty.

J: Um-hum. All different ages?

TC: Yeah. Different ages. From the first to the eighth. Yes sir. We had two...two Chamber's girls. Lee Chamber's girls. Had three Chamber's girls and uh...I know some of their children now.

J: Who were some of the other kids in school? Do you remember?

TC: Yeah. The Hatfields, they had Hatfields all over Double Camp Holler.

J: Un-hun.

TC: You had Simon Hatfield, you had Grover Hatfield, you had Anse Hatfield, you had Lance Hatfield.

J: Anse and Lance.

TC: Anse and Lance. Anse and Lance. Huh? No.

J: Were they brothers?

TC: No. Hunt-uh. Anse, old man Anse was Lance's uncle. Alex Cat Field [sic] was his father. Alex. A.L.E.X.

J: I hear a lot about a man named Greenway Hatfield.

TC: Greenway, he was the sheriff.

J: Do you know Greenway?

TC: Yeah. He was sheriff and lived down Williamson.

J: Um-hum.

TC: But he was born and raised in Mate Creek too.

J: Um-hum. What kin is he to you?

TC: uh...Greenway's was uh...well, he was related to me on the Hatfield and CHafin side too. His mother was a Chafin and his daddy was a cousin to Devil Anse.

J: Um-hum.

TC: His daddy and Devil Anse were cousins.

J: So, did you know Greenway?

TC: Yeah. I knew Greenway. I can remember him.

J: WHat sort of a guy was he?

TC: He was a fine man. Everybody liked him oh, he could just be elected any time he wanted to and then he had two boys that was sheriff too. Uh...Greenways boys, I can't think of their names. I've got to where I can't think. Yeah. Greenway Hatfield's children. No. Hun-un. No. He was a nice man. I tell you where he lived. He lived in Hatfield Bottom down here. You know where the funeral home is down there?

J: Un-hun.

TC: He owned that whole thing. Had one big house there with a big farm.

J: Greenway did?

TC: Greenway Hatfield. He owned that. One house in Hatfield Bottom where the funereal home is down there. You know where it is?

J: Un-hun. Now the uh...the things you were tellin' me earlier about uh...Ellison did you learn these from your mom. Did she tell you these stories about the events of the feud or is it things you just picked up from other people in the family?

TC: Well um...my father'd tell me the most of it. He told me about him comin' down to the saloon and gettin' with his buddies and goin' over there.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And my father would tell me that he didn't have any business over there to start with and he didn't like it because he did go over there. He should have stayed at uh...in other words, he should have stayed away.

J: Did our father think he went over there just ????? for a fight?

TC: Yeah. He yeah...yeah...he felt that way and he felt that uh...he ought to have uh...more common sense than to go over there to start with. Now that's exactly the way he talked to me about it.

J: Um-hum.

TC: But...

J: Ok. Did you go on in school after that?

TC: Go into...I passed the ninth grade in high school up here.

J: And was that in Matewan?

TC: Um-hum.

J: Ok.

TC: And then I was uh...first I was elected constable for four years and served as constable here in this town for four years. In this district. It was Magnolia district, well it is yet. Matewan...Magnolia district and uh...then I served fourteen years as Magistrate. I was elected sixteen but I gave up the last two to take over the county court clerk's office of Mingo County.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And I served in it ten years and...

J: And that was when, mid sixties and mid seventies.

TC: uh...first day of sixty-three 'til the last day of seventy-two I was county clerk.

J: Ok.

TC: And the first day of Seventy-three to the last day of eighty, I was sheriff. That was eighteen years at the court house. Eighteen years here in Matewan made thirty-six years. I have the record. I never did get a write up on it or anything but I...I have the record of uh...bein' elected longer than any man that ever lived in Mingo County.

J: Thirty-six straight years?

TC: Thirty-six straight years. Now I got beat one time.

J: When was that?

TC: And they want to know. THey ask me questions when I tell them that. Well, you was elected thirty-six straight years. You never was out of office and you say that you got beat, how did you do it?

J: Yeah.

TC: Alright, I was elected magistrate, justice of the peace, for a four year term and decided after I had served two years that I would run for sheriff so I ran for sheriff and got beat. I got beat. That's the first time I ever run for uh...county wide office. I got beat and I stayed in the other two years as my...as justice of peace and I give the sheriff such a hard time that he came from Williamson up here and teamed up with me and talked me into runnin' for county clerk.

J: Who was that now?

TC: His name was Howard Chambers.

J: When you say you gave him a hard time, what did you give him a hard time about?

TC: Well, I come a little bit of beating him.

J: In the election you mean?

TC: Oh yeah. I gave him a hard time in the election yeah. I was gettin' the votes where I wasn't...where he didn't think that I could. In fact, we had one precinct in Dingess, you've heard of Dingess precinct?

J: Un-hun.

TC: The...I beat him there real bad and that...that's the reason why he wanted to team with...wanted to team with me for the next two...he was gonna run again the next two years. He was fillin' in for his dad. HIs dad had died. He was just finishin' out his term You couldn't be elected but one time then but he was just appointed to fin...to finish his father's term.

J: What can you tell me about that tunnel over in Dingess?

TC: I don't know too much about it only I go through it several times.

J: What...what uh...what...

TC: The railroad used to come through there. That was the railroad that come up Tug River.

J: Un-hun.

TC: Come through that way.

J: But...but a road goes through it now?

TC: Yeah. yeah. county road.

J: Un-hun.

TC: THe county road.

J: Yeah...what is that route number? Do you know right off hand?

TC: No. I don't know.

J: Cause I've wanted to see that tunnel...

TC: I don't know it. I don't know it.

J: Ok.

TC: Do you travel around some?

J: I have some. I haven't been...I haven't been to Dingess yet. Ok. Let's......

TC: I guess I could go with you over there some day if you wanted to?

J: I'd like to see it.

TC: If...if you need me to.

J: I've heard a little bit about that tunnel and I'd like to just say I've ridden through it you know.

TC: Well now uh...I have cousins, Hatfield cousins like Dutch Hatfield use to be chief police of town here lives up Newtown and his brothers and all them now they...they are Hatfield. They are first cousins of mine but I don't know of anybody that's related to Devil Anse's family the way that my family is. I tell you why. Uh...my grandfather...my father's daddy was Mose Chafin. He was Allen Chafin's father and my granddaddy. He was a brother to Aunt 'Vicy Hatfield. She was 'Vicy Chafin when...when Devil Anse married her so that makes me double cousins to all of Devil Anse's family.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Double cousins. Now Dutch Hatfield up there, he was just a Hatfield and he was just a...he's just a cousin but I'm double cousins. I'm a double.

J: You got them on both sides?

TC: My whole family. They was eleven of us children. Now, they's four of us left out of eleven. Now.

J: Are your...are they still livin around here?

TC: Yeah. I have a...I have a sister that lives at Newtown that has a large family. Her...her son was chief police of this town. Dan Kinder is his name uh...her name is Nanny. Nanny Kinder. K.I.N.D.E.R. She is ninety years old. Now that's the oldest one that's a livin.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And I have one in Cleveland, Ohio, by the name of Jane McGuire. M.C.G.U.I.R.E. Jane is about uh...let's see eighty, she's about eighty-two. Jane's eighty-two and then uh...I'm seventy-eight but I don't want to tell it. (laughing)

J: You already did.

TC: I already did...didn't I. I shouldn't have told you that. And my other sister lived down Williamson. Cassie Hammond...Cassie Hammond.

J: Un-hun.

TC: She's about seventy-six.

J: Um...

TC: Three girls and me. Three girls and me.

J: Ok.

TC: Nanny, Jane and Cassie and Tom. I..I livin now.

J: What sort of things did uh... now you've got a real got memory so I want to be sure to ask you this, what sort of things did kids do for recreation when you were a kid.

TC: Well, just...the biggest thing was baseball.

J: Played a lot of ball?

TC: And something at school was marbles. Was you ever in a marble game?

J: Little bit. I never was very good at it.

TC: I remember one time had a big rain and I had the marbles...Oh well, we liked them marbles, different sizes you know, and they was pretty too. They's pretty expensive too well at that day and time you know and uh...my teacher is a livin' and I was with him today at the court house. Kenny Browning.

J: He taught you to play marbles?

TC: No. K. Z. Browning and he's a preacher right up here in North Matewan.

J: Yeah. I've heard of him.

TC: Alright now, he was borned in 1900. I don't know what month but he was born in 1900 and I was with him today at the court house and he looks...he look as young as I do. I'm tellin' you ought to looked how good he looked today. His wife died not too long ago and she was my cousin. She was Willa...Willa...W.I.L.L.A. Willa.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Hatfield. She was a Hatfield. She was a cousin of mine. Her mother and...her mother and my mother were first cousins. Were sister's children and Kenny is...was borned in 1900. He's two years older than Lee, my brother that died. 1900 would make him eighty-nine wouldn't it. He's eighty-nine.

J: Yeah I've heard....I've heard a lot about him.

TC: And he look it. He looks young enough to be eighty anyway. or seventy-eight.

J: What were you gonna tell me about this big marble game now.

TC: Oh yeah. Uh...he was my teacher and we had an old school house across the...across the creek. You had to go across a...walk a...walk a bridge to the school and we had concrete here in the front of the school where you come in the front door and hit was... hit had been a rainin' outside so we got on the inside there and it was pretty good...it was half as big as this...this room here and we had drawed a line with chalk and we was playin' marbles there for keep and he come in and uh..I was a gettin' ready to shot and say you was shootin' with me. I jerked you backward and I said "Here, hit ain't your shot dammit, it's mine" and I remember him grabin' me by the arm and kickin' me up to the steps.

J: Kenny Browning did?

TC: Yeah. (laughing)

J: THat was the end of that game?

TC: Yeah, because I said dammit. I said "Dammit it's not your time. It's mine" and he was right behind me.

J: Well when you shot one...

TC: We'd laugh about it. We'd laugh about it.

J: When you shot marbles, you...you kept the marbles if you won the game right?

TC: Yeah. If you win it.

J: And the other guy has to get a chance to win them back later?

TC: Yeah. Well now, baseball or marbles was the main two at the time I was in school. I can remember that we had us...in our school...now my teacher then was my aunt, she had married Kirk Hatfield. My mother's brother. Ellison's youngest son, Kirk Hatfield. Andy Kirk. I've got a grandson named Andy Kirk. Andy Kirk Hatfield had married Gaye Hatfield. She was Gaye Brotherton... she's got relatives let's see, one of the Supreme Court Judges in West Virginia.

J: Oh. Ok. Um-hum.

TC: Brotherton. You've heard of him haven't you?

J: Um-hum. Sure.

TC: Well now that's...that's one of her cousins and uh...Aunt Gaye, we called her Aunt Gaye. SHe was my aunt. She married my uncle and uh...went to school to here and I can remember when we had a Christmas, we'd always have a Christmas play you know, just before Christmas and everybody had to learn uh...something to...they had to get up before the class and recite a poem you know, a Christmas poem. It had to be a Christmas poem and I had uh..I had to learn one and I mean it was a long one at that day and time and you'd be surprised to know that I know every bit of that yet and I don't know how old I was. I must have been about twelve and the name of it was "Colored Popcorn on a String". Canary birds which do not sing, the little candles dripping wax, banjos, ????, jumping jacks, jacks and boxes rubber toys, tiny cups mostly for toys, fancy ???? and loads of glass, children's watches made of brass, cheap tin horses sheep and goat, paper dolls and wooden boats, lot's of toys that goes on wheels, a ball when you squeeze it sequels, tinsel tassel just for show, a candy clock that doesn't go, horns of plenty full of candy, tooting horns for Bill and Andy, a drum for Tom, for Sis a sled and a dandy pair of skates for Fred, a red neck tie for dear old dad, the prettiest one that he ever had and a handkerchief for mamma too and a satchel bag for ole Aunt Lou, all these things and plenty more on the tree and on the floor and then you give a big bow and sit down and I never forgot that.

J: Now, what...

TC: Um-hum.

J: Have you taught that to other kids?

TC: Yeah.

J: Since then?

TC: Yeah, I've taught it to...

J: Did you make that up or did somebody...

TC: NO...no it was in a book. It was in a book.

J: I see, you learned it from that?

TC: You had to get that by heart. Now, we had a...we had a buddy, I had a buddy goin' to school with me and he was funny as a monkey and everybody at school, boys, girls, and all teachers and all thought more of him than anybody that was at our school. We had a big school then. We had maybe uh...how many would you say? seventy-five. We had seventy-five or a hundred students at Newtown Grade School. we had to big...no, we had three rooms. THree big rooms. Three teachers. Oh, we had a hundred and fifty students and his name was Bill Davis. Now he married Dutch Hatfields sister. A cousin of mine uh...that was Gretchel Hatfield. Girl. He was a brother to my mother, Gretchel was so uh...Bill Davis was called on and the teacher explained now it's got to be for Christmas. Something about Santa Claus and Christmas and all that and he was ready...He was ready and oh, he was just thought more of than anybody, Bill was. You'd laugh by lookin' at him. He's so funny. Funny as a monkey is the old sayin' then and he got up and he got ready and he give a big bow all the way down. I'll never forget it and uh...he was ready to say his poem and alright, Bill, go ahead, Said "Big boy, big boy, where'd you get your britches, ma cut them out and pa sowed the stitches...and they wasn't nothin' that was in it and they wasn't a thing in it about Christmas. Out of all, they like to tore that school house down a laughin' and I tell you, man they cut a shine. We'll never forget it. Bill died though. He died up in Princeton, West Virginia not long ago. Bill died. Now that was his...that was his Christmas poem.(laughing)

J: How bout uh...how bout Halloween. Did you all celebrate Halloween when you were a kid?

TC: Yeah. Yeah. We always had fun on Halloween.

J: How' you do that?

TC: I remember having fun one time with Arnold Varney, now that was a cousin of mine, now...

J: Varney?

TC: Yeah. That was a cousin of mine of the Chafin side. His mother and my dad were brother and sister. And he was mean. He was pretty tough. He tried to be tougher than I did but I wouldn't let him so I whipped him on Halloween at school. I whipped him and run home to get away from the teacher. We had a...we'd always have plays on Halloween. Put on those masks and all bout like we did...close to what it is now I guess.

J: Did kids go trick-or-treatin' at that time?

TC: Yeah.

J: Or is that something that they...

TC: Yeah...yeah. They sure did.

J: Ok.

TC: They sure did.

J: You were mentioning baseball a while ago, I wanted to ask you a specific question about something called the sand bar league. Have you ever heard that expression before?

TC: Hun-un. I never did.

J: Ok. How bout the baseball at the coal camps. Now, you worked around the coal camps for a long time....

TC: Oh, yeah. Yeah...they had them They had some good ones.

J: Tell me about those teams.

TC: I was...I was catcher of one of them.

J: Were you?

TC: OH yeah.

J: What team was that now? Do you remember?

TC: Uh...well, we had different teams. We had the Red Jacket...the Red Jacket team...Red Jacket baseball team and then we had uh...Red Robin, Red Robin team was in Williamson and they was a good one and we played Red Robin, Red Jacket team would play Red Robin. We had different one all over.

J: Was this the Red Jacket Giants? Was that the name of the team?

TC: Yeah...yeah. Red Jacket Giants.

J: And Red Robin was this a company or was this that restaurant over there called the Red Robin?

TC: No, it was just the Red Robin team. Way back years ago. It was on the Kentucky side of Williamson and then they had one in Williamson. I forget what they called it. They called it Williamson...Williamson something. I forgot what it was now.

J: Now was this I've heard about called the coal camp league?

TC: Yeah.

J: Is that what it was called?

TC: Coal camp league. Yeah.

J: Now, did you all play...where their white teams and black teams?

TC: No.

J: It was mixed?

TC: No.

J: Were there mixed teams? They were just all white teams?

TC: All white teams.

J: Ok.

TC: All white ones.

J: Who were some of the ball players on your team?

TC: Uh...

J: Or on the other teams for that matter.

TC: Well, Garnet Richmond. G.A.R.N.E.T. Richmond. He was a police man in Williamson when he got killed. He got killed in Williamson as a police man.

J: While he was workin'?

TC: Yeah...yeah...yeah...while he was on duty. And then uh...we had Dutch Hatfield...Dutch Hatfield, Ted Hatfield. T.E.D. Ted Hatfield, Elliott...Elliott Hatfield..

J: Is that El...El..Elliott?

TC: Yeah. Elliott.

J: Ok.

TC: And uh...oh we had Lance...Lance, the one I was tellin' you about awhile ago.

J: Un-hun.

TC: Lance Hatfield.

J: Now did uh...you were working for Red Jacket Coal Company at that time. Is that correct?

TC: I...I'd say I played after I went to work, yes.

J: Ok.

TC: Yeah. Yeah, I played.

J: And did the company put up money for equipment and that kind of thing?

TC: No. NO. Hun-un. We had to do that ourself.

J: So this is like you...you sponsor yourself...

TC: Yeah. We sponsored ourself.

J: How'd you get around to the different games?

TC: Uh...we would get...we had a pick-up truck most...most time we'd go in that pick-up truck together. We'd go to...from Red Jacket to Williamson in a pick-up truck and we'd go to Matewan. From Red Jacket to Matewan.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Or we'd go to Beech Creek. Wherever we was gonna play in that pick-up truck. I don't know which one had the pick-up truck but somebody had it.

J: Now were these games a big deal for the community. Lot of people come out and watch?

TC: Yeah. Yeah, they...they liked it. We use to have it at Red Jacket. Man, and it was something. Right across from the school house. Across the railroad tracks. Had a big ball field. Man, it was a good one. It was a good one. Yeah. I know a lot more...a lot more we had let me think of their names. We had them everywhere. Huh? I'll get them tomorrow.

J: You just played in your work clothes and street clothes?

TC: Yeah. Um-hum.

J: How bout catchin' equipment? Did you have chest protector?

TC: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. We had that.

J: How bout revival meetin's when you were...when you were...now, more back when you were a kid again. did revivals come through town or come into town?

TC: They had revival meetings uh...at Red Jacket and at Newtown and at Matewan and...the biggest revival meetin' would be the Church of God. The Church of God would have revival meetings more so than any other church. More than the Methodist or the Baptist or anything. The way that I can remember it. They use to have them in Newtown.

J: Did your folks take you to the tent revivals? Is that what they were?

TC: Un-hun.

J: Did your folks take you to those?

TC: You mean to tent revivals?

J: Um-hum.

TC: No. They had...they had...they had church houses.

J: OH. THat's where they had the revivals?

TC: Yeah. They had the revivals at their church. At the church house.

J: Would these be like one week deals?

TC: Yeah. Yeah week. We had one out here not too long ago at my church.

J: Yeah now, you were tellin' me earlier uh...was it a...an aunt of yours a grandmother that was in on the founding of your church here?

TC: Preacher Joe Hatfield. Now he...his daddy, his father was a brother to Devil Anse and to my granddaddy, Ellison. His name was Patterson. Patterson Hatfield's son, Joe Hatfield, was the founder of this Baptist church here. He sure was.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And he's got a daughter. He has two daughter's [sic] and a son-in-law that's members and goes there now. Golden Barrett married Virgie Hatfield and Hattie Mitchell married Cecil Mitchell. Cecil Mitchell died. Hattie...she don't have a husband now. Hattie Hatfield and they are cousins of mine. And he was..he was the founder of...of our Missionary Baptist Church is the right name. Missionary Baptist Church. Matewan Missionary Baptist Church. I was there school bus driver for twenty-one years and four months here at Matewan High School.

J: Oh yeah. Somebody mentioned that to me.

TC: Now, I hauled them to school and they grew up in that family before I quit and I could go to Bluefield. I could go to Huntington and I'd go anywhere and I'd see somebody'd holler at me across the street that I'd hauled to school. I can remember...I can remember when I first got into politics. The high school people...now don't let nobody tell you that high school people, if you ever decide to get in politics, is not the best people that you can have. They have more influence. They have influence over their families, over their father and mother, and they'll say now...

J: You mean like he kids?

TC: Yeah. The high school people. When the high school people goes home every evening they'd say tell their mother and father, they didn't even know Tom. I want you to vote for Tom Chafin tomorrow. Ok. We'll do it. Maybe they didn't even know me and they'd come out on election day, I remember at Red Jacket precinct, Matewan precinct here and these other precincts come right out there and I'd give them a hand full of cards and they'd stand there and talk to everybody. Stand there and talk to you as you come up and go to vote and give you one of them cards and ask you to vote for them. They was just worth more, I don't know, in my political time, they're worth more than anybody I ever did know. Or i ever got connected with. Was the high school people. And then...

J: Did the kids work elections like that today?

TC: I...I don't believe they do. I don't believe they do. But they never one man, I'd be at Red Jacket maybe, or if I was I Matewan, I'd help..they'd be eight or ten there talkin' and campaignin' for me and wantin' the cards. Give me some cards. We use...we use to have it.

J: How did you come to get that job uh...on the school bus drive?

TC: Uh...I was runnin' this grocery store and i think I'd quit foolin' with the beer. Some of them had talked to be about it and maybe it was botherin' me some and uh...I asked for the job. THey gave it to me. It paid to start with I think...I don't know what it pays right now, I'd like to know, I think it pays about eight-hundred dollars a month. It paid seventy dollars a month when I started. But maybe you could buy more with that seventy dollars than you could eight hundred right now. (laughing)

J: Possible.

TC: I wouldn't doubt it. I told you what a beer was. Fifteen cents. I mean the highest price, fifteen and ten. And a package of Beech Nut tobacco was fifteen cents.

J: At your store?

TC: Yeah. And it's a dollar and somethin' now. And a package of Camel's were fifteen cents and the Wings and the other cheaper cigarette's was ten cents a package.

J: Wings?

TC: Wings. They had...they had...they had..it was a pretty big smoke. Can you remember? You can't remember?

J: Ten cents a pack. Huh. Did you sell clothes in your store? Work clothes, boots, that kind of stuff?

TC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Work shoes. They'd come in and want a pair of work socks and I wouldn't have them I'd say "You come back next week" and I'll have them. that's how I built that up. Oh, man. Well like Dan Chamber's, he was president of the bank over here and he...I remember what he told me, uh...I got into politics, he said "you don't want to do that. You're gettin' rich anyhow." I said "What are you talkin' about. I owe everybody." Which you know, you would owe a lot you know when you buy what I bought and uh...he knew why I was doin' it. In thirty-six months back then, in thirty-six months now, I kept a count of it. I had saved on a savings, just a saving account, ten thousand dollars.

J: From the store?

TC: And if you had ten thousand dollars back then, you was...you didn't just have some money, you was a rich man.

J: Now, when are you talkin' about, the forties? Late forties, mid forties?

TC: First forty...first part of the forties. Say thirty-nine, forty, and forty-one.

j: How did you, uh,...you say you can order...somebody come in and you didn't have a particular brand of socks and you ordered it. Who'd you order it from?

TC: Well, I had, they's salesman come. They come from grocery companies. They come from uh...different companies. They come around...just said your...you a salesmen today, you got certain things you sell. You come to my store and sell them to me. Yeah. We had uh...three wholesale, two wholesale grocery companies in Williamson, had one right over here. Straight across here.

J: Here in Matewan?

TC: Yeah.

J: What was the name of that? So you remember?

TC: Dewey Hatfield owned it.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Hatfield...Hatfield Wholesale. He sold feed and groceries. I know um...my buddy and me bought him out and worked three days there uh...cleanin' it up and gettin' it ready then my buddy backed out and I backed out with him and let Dewey keep it.

J: Oh, you didn't..

TC: Kermit Cisco.

J: You went out on the deal huh?

TC: Worked three hard days too man. We was cleanin' that up and straighten it up and makin' it look good and Kermit Cisco, he's dead now. He asked me, he said to me said "I believe this is too much for you and me. What do you think?" I said "I do to. I think" I was still Justice of the Peace and drivin' a school bus too.

J: Un-hun.

TC: I drove the school bus when I was Justice of the Peace. Yeah. I'd get in office...I'd get the children in at nine and I'd go to the office and stay 'til four and go back and take the children home.

J: So...so you all got everything cleaned up and ship shape and then Dewey took it back over again?

TC: Yeah. And we...we backed out on him. We hadn't paid him yet. We just said no good. We hadn't took nothin'. Were not gonna take it. He say's "I don't think he cared" He did now. Dewey's dead. But his wife's still livin'. I haven't seen her in a long time. Grace. That's another cousin of mine. Dewey. All Hatfields a cousin of mine.

J: And he was uh...Grace was married to him?

TC: Yeah. Um-hum. ANd Grace is still livin but I don't know where she is.

J: yeah. She lives uh right out back here I think.

TC: You would be surprised if I could tell you, how many Hatfields was half Chafins. The Chafin and Hatfield like me.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Now, let me tell you something else too that's big, ferrell, you've heard that name, Ferrell.

J: Um-hum. That's F.E.R.R.E.L.L.

TC: yeah. They are all over Pike County and Mingo County. Pike County, Kentucky and Mingo County, West Virginia. Ferrell's are and their related. Now, my grandmother, my...my...my daddy's mother up here at Blackberry City. Just above Blackberry CIty. She was born and raise there. Her name was Rebecca Ferrell. And she married Mose Chafin. THat was my grandmother. Now, I'm related to all the Kennedy's cause their...their grandmother was a Ferrell. YOu see how it goes? And, just on and on across the river over here. Where you go across this bridge right down here. Half of them people over there is my cousins. THey got a restaurant down in Hatfield Bottom, you know where it is? You ever been down to that restaurant?

J: What's the name of it?

TC: What is the name of it?

J: OH, The Snack Shack. Yeah...yeah.

TC: Well, now, their my cousins. Their my cousins. Two of the Ferrells, and the Hatfield.

J: Now how bout the...ar the Chambers and the Hatfields related in any way?

TC: Not as I know of. Chamber's are fine people though. See, Sid Hatfield was uh...one that was killed here. Now, he was...he was uh....supeona to Welch, West Virginia. That's up in McDowell County, for a trial when he shouldn't have went. Him and Ed Chambers and they was walkin' up those steps, you've read that. Now I could show you exactly where they fell and uh Ed's wife, not Sid's wife, but Ed's wife had a big umbrella. It's been rainin' and she closed it up and she took the umbrella and beat him over the head with it while he was shootin' Ed.

TC: They rode the train up there. You didn't get up there no other way but a train.

J: We just started our second tape. Now that was uh...Lively she was beatin' over the head. Right?

TC: Yeah.

J: The guy that was doin' the shootin'?

TC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

J: Did you know any of those folks?

TC: No.

J: You would have just been a little kid.

TC: No. Hun-un. No I didn't know them. I think that happened in twenty-one didn't it?

J: He was shot in twenty-one.

TC: Yeah. Um-hum. I was just ten years old then. I was born in eleven.

J: Did people do uh...when people kept farms and gardens around here, say in the thirties, forties, and did they use any heavy...heavy equipment like tractors or was it mostly still uh...the old plows...

TC: Well no sir. There wudn't no such thing. THey's a mule and a plow.

J: Un-hun.

TC: Or a horse and a plow. That's all they had.

J: Did you sell uh...that kind of stuff in your store also. A plow...

TC: Oh, yeah.

J: What kind of brand names are you talkin' about?

TC: No, I didn't sell plows but I sold the feed for the mule and the horse and the cows and uh...

J: Ok.

TC: And uh..I didn't sell any equipment like that. BUt I sold gasoline now.

J: Did you?

TC: Yeah. I had gasoline.

J: What did a gallon of gasoline cost in 1940's.

TC: I think it was...

J: Course it went up during the war, I guess, cause that you couldn't get it could you?

TC: I think it was uh..twenty...twenty-six cents I believe. Twenty-six cents a gallon when I first started sellin' it. Now, I believe maybe it went to about thirty cents, finally. NOw it's a dollar fourteen cents. It's a dollar thirty, that high test is.

J: Un-hun.

TC: Dollar thirty now George.

J: Now you were still, you said you worked in a mines between thirty-eight and forty-one. Approximately.

TC: Twenty-eight and 1928 to 1941.

J: How did the depression hit the coal industry around here?

TC: OH it really...it really...it really hit it. And uh...1928, March of 1928, I went to work in...in the mines. Four dollars a day. Four dollars a day. I worked the rest of twenty-eight and twenty-nine for four dollars and...

J: Did they still have script at that time or they payin' you?

TC: We had script.

J: Had company script?

TC: Yeah...yeah. You could draw it if you wanted it. You could draw script and uh...twenty-eight and twenty-nine, I was paid four dollars and by the time from twenty-nine, the last of twenty-nine to first of thirty-two, they had cut me down to a dollar eighty cents a day. I worked for a dollar and eighty cents. And something else they'd make you do, that's the reason why I'm a United Mine Worker, they would, force you to come to work at the mine, up on the hill at the mine to get there before day light and you would be thair 'til after dark and I remember walkin' down mate Creek with my buddies. We was all boys then and I...uh...some of us had to have old shoes on somethin' like that. I remember I had a pair I worked in the mines and take them...took them all and scotch taped them.. Tape around it to hold the sole on. Well, we didn't have no money.

J: ANd had to wear those to work in?

TC: Yeah. And we didn't have any money. Wudn't no such a thing as money. If...they'd work about one day a week. Sometimes you'd get two days a week and you'd go down and get you two dollars script but you couldn't get but eighty-cents for your script unless you trade it at the grocery...at the company store.

J: Company store.

TC: The company store. Come up to another store up Mate Creek or Beech Creek and you just got eighty cents worth. I'll give you eighty cents...eighty cents worth of merchandise here for your dollar script.

J: for a dollars worth of script.

TC: Un-hun. Well now we uh...uh...from four dollars the last of twenty-nine to the first of thirty-two, I was gettin' a dollar eighty and Franklin D. was elected in thirty-two and took over in thirty-three and thirty-three was just as bad. All of thirty-three he was tryin'. He was workin' and long about thirty-four we got a raise I think went to two forty and oh, boy we was really...we was really ??? and we was uh...gettin' shoes or anything then and then it went to three sixty, I remember, and I remember an old man that run a grocery store up there my the name of Jess Dillon. Up at...that was up Newtown above Red Jacket. Said boys said uh...uh "They've raised it to three-sixty." Said we really makin' the money now. If said, of course groceries have went up to. Said if we let it go and we wouldn't eat none for about two weeks said we could save us some money couldn't we? (laughing) He was a quarreling cause the groceries went up. Everything else had went up.

J: But you were still down...still makin' less money than you had been makin' in 1928.

TC: Oh, yeah...yeah. Um-hum.

J: So you back up to workin' maybe what, three days a week by this time?

TC: Yeah.

J: Three or four days?

TC: Yeah. Now about thirty-four began to pick up. Thirty-five and thirty-six it got much better. It got much better in thirty-five and thirty-six and that's when I got married. I got married in 1936.

J: Ok. What's...what's your wife's name?

TC: Hazel.

J: And her maiden name?

TC: Isaac. I.S.A.A.C. 1936.

J: Ok.

TC: She's down in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina right now. BUt were still married I reckon.

J: You reckon?

TC: I reckon now I don't guess she's sued down there. (laughing)

J: She's living down there.

TC: Yeah. No...no...no...she just went down there for a trip.

J: Oh. Ok. Oh. Ok.

TC: We had...I have three granddaughters down there, too.

J: Livin at Myrtle Beach?

TC: Her...

J: Oh, on the trip.

TC: No, they don't live...

J: Ok.

TC: They live in south uh...Charleston, South Carolina.

J: When did the uh...we'll wrap this one up in a little while and then you can come back next Wednesday, that would be great. But I do have...since were on this topic a couple more questions uh...

TC: Yeah. I'm on no hurry.

J: When did the uh...the union get back in the coal fields here? Must have been about thirty-six or thirty-seven.

TC: Thirty-six.

J: Ok.

TC: No. We joined in thirty-three. Wait a minute. 1933, I joined the union.

J: Oh, you did?

TC: Yeah. Yeah. I walked down Mate Creek with them on that tour bus Sunday down to the old Red Jacket school. THey tore it down now. They tore both schools. Building down. And we had a president. An old grey headed man, lives in North Matewan and I can't think of his name at 'all and uh...I remember that uh..they was eight or ten of us and I..I was the spokesman as the sayin' is. THey depended on me to do the talkin' and I said uh...Mr., whatever his name was, I forgot his name, I want to ask you a question before we take this oath and before we join this union. Ok, he said, anything you want to ask. Will you promise us, for sure, that we can start to work the next day the mines run. It wudn't runnin' but one or two days a week. If you run one day a week, you made a dollar and eighty cents a week. You see what I am tryin' to tell you? Uh...if you run two days, you made a dollar and eighty two times uh...will you guarantee us after we take this oath and join this union, this United Mine Worker that we can start the work the next day the mines runs at seven thirty in the morning, and quit at four o'clock in the evening and he had a...there's a notary there with him. He got that notary to swear him. Said "I'll swear that I'm gonna tell you the truth" to swear him. He swore him.

J: Now this is a guy from the union?

TC: Yeah. Yeah. And he said "I will guarantee you that the next day that the mines runs, you start at seven thirty and you quit at exactly four o'clock." And that's what we did. We waited down at the foot of the hill and we'd walk up and we'd get up there, say it was five minutes 'til seven thirty, we'd walk up the hill. We'd get up there and there was the man trip. You know what a man trip is?

J: Hun-un.

TC: It's a motor with empty cars, coal cars,hooked to it. To the back of it and you'd climb in those empty coal cars and they'd haul you through under that hill. Say a mile, a mile and a half every how far it was in there. That was a man trip and when four o'clock come, we would load in them empty cars and then seven thirty in the morning, we'd load in those empty cars outside and go inside.

J: Now had...so the union had worked out a contract with the company then?

TC: Yeah.

J: At that point.

TC: Yeah. Uh...we had a company check weigh man and we had a union check weigh man at that time now. What I'm talkin' about a check weigh man, we had a scale house there. You was loadin' that coal in there with a red head shovel. With a big shovel and you'd put three ton of coal in that car, hit would come out and they would weigh it and they were...had been cheatin'. They'd been givin' you two ton and a half for three ton or somethin' like that and we put a union check weigh man in there with the company check weigh man and the union check weigh man and the mine foreman got into it and the union check weigh man was named W. H. Oakes. He killed the mine foreman.

J: Is that right?

TC: The mine foreman went in on him with a twenty-five automatic. If you know guns, I don't know whether you know guns or not...

J: A little bit.

TC: Do you. Well the twenty-five automatic, I'd rather have a rock or just anything. I wouldn't have one and W.H. Oakes had two thirty-eight specials. One on each side with a load of top coat that he wore over top of it and he killed the mine foreman.

J: Now, was that at the mines?

TC: Right at the mines. Yes, sir.

J: What was the foreman's name?

TC: Ernest Cook. I don't recon anybody will get mad for us tellin' that will they? Huh?

J: That's fifty years ago. And uh...the other guys name was O.A.K.S?

TC: Oak. O.A.K. O.A.K.E.S.

J: O.A.K.E.S.

TC: I believe yeah. Now he's got a son that lives down at Sprigg. You know where Sprigg is?

J: Um-hum.

TC: And he runs a little grocery. A little dirty lookin' grocery store on the right goin' down through Sprigg. You noticed these big uh...wire fences they got down here. He's the man that builds them wire fences for that coal company. Around that...that's W. H. Oake's grandson.

J: Ok. Now let me...

TC: Hamilton's his name.

J: Ok.

TC: He's a Hamilton.

J: Let me get this straight now, Cook, the foreman, was now, was Oakes your check weigh man? He was the union check weigh man.

TC: Oakes was the check weigh man. Union check weigh man.

J: Ok. Now...now what caused Cook to go after him?

TC: I don't know. They got into an argument some way. THey had a company check weigh man too that was in there with Oakes. Now his name was Cisco. Cisco, I forget his first name but anyway, he was a Cisco. C.I.S.C.O. Cisco was company check weigh man and Oakes, W. H. Oakes was union check weigh man and Ernest Cook was the mine foreman and they got into a fight. The first thing that W. H. Oakes and Ernest Cook did, they got into a fight out in the track in front of the scale house and they got into a fight and uh...he cut Ernest Cook's throat from here to here but Oakes... Ernest Cook got well. Went to the hospital for about two months and got well. He married Pearl Hatfield, Barret's sister um... Ernest Cook did and he was cut from here to here but it wudn't deep enough to kill him and he got well and come back with that twenty-five automatic on his hips and I've been told this now, and I was right there. I was inside the mine when it happened. I wudn't outside there. The scale house was outside and I was runnin' the motor that day and time and uh...he uh...Ernest went in on him. Went in the scale house on him and after he come back. After he got back from the hospital with his throat bein' cut. He got back and he went in on him with that twenty-five automatic and uh... pushed him out the door...knocked him out the door somethin' and they got out on the outside and Oakes shot him and killed him and he went down over that hill and was goin' down to the road down yonder and they was uh...uh...feller deliverin' laundry, from the laundry and he just climbed up in the front seat of his truck and said drive me to Matewan. And they drove..he drove Oakes to Matewan. He didn't change a word they said. He drove him to Matewan here and Oakes went on to Williamson and I believe they locked him up, I'm not sure but anyhow, they tried him in Williamson, Mingo County Circuit Court and he come clear and they give him Chief Police's job here in Matewan.

J: So he was the next chief in Matewan?

TC: W. H. Oakes was the chief police in Matewan and when that was all over, he had a man's store on third avenue in Williamson. Suits and clothes for men. That was the last time ever I knew him He went to Ohio, I think, and died. He left Williamson and moved somewhere to Ohio.

J: How long was he police...

TC: Now that's his grandson down at Sprigg, I was tellin' you about.

J: This guy Hamilton?

TC: Yeah. And Hamilton, his mother, lives up here at Blackberry City. Graydon Hamilton is his father. Married W. H. Oakes' daughter. This boy's mother.

J: How long was Oakes police chief? Do you recall?

TC: No, I don't. I can't remember. I's still workin' in a mines up there. I think about two years or something like that. Yeah.

J: Now Bob McCoy wanted me to ask you..

TC: Yeah. I know Bob.

J: About a...a shooting that took place, I guess in Matewan, some time in the 1940's when Allen Hatfield shot a McCoy.

TC: Um-hum.

J: Now what's the story behind that?

TC: Now, let me tell you where it happened first.

J: Ok.

TC: Right here at Nenni's...Nenni's is right there.

J: Right.

TC: It's straight...straight back here. If we could get through that wall, I'd show you where it happened. That's where it happened.

J: Back by the railroad tracks?

TC: Back there. On this side of the railroad tracks. Between the building and the railroad track. He took him down around that way and was gonna put him in jail over there and uh...started arguing with him...

J: Was this Allen Hatfield?

TC: Yeah.

J: Was he the police chief at that time?

TC: Yeah...Yeah. He was chief police. Add he killed him. What'd they say his name was?

J: Uh...Bob just said hit was a McCoy. He...he couldn't uh...couldn't tell me the name?

TC: Oh. His sister works at the smoke house, in Williamson. You know McCoy. You know her? Her...her husband's the one the councilman down in West Williamson. He's our councilman now. George Spaulding. George Spaulding's wife is..is his sister. Uh...he killed him. He was uh...I can't think of his name though, he had a brother that was uh...drunk and he still lived after this one was killed. This one was mean but the one that was drunk, he wudn't mean, he just stayed drunk all the time and when I was sheriff, I kept him in jail half the time.

J: Was this the brother?

TC: Yeah. They would bring him down and uh...I'd put him in and let him sober up right good and let him out of trustee, we call it. Let him warsh cruisers and go to the store and all cause I liked him and he was good. He didn't harm nobody but this one was pretty mean fellow but he wudn't mean...he wudn't mean as Allen. Thought he was and they...they used to come to my place at Newtown. THey wouldn't stay here, they'd come to my place and set and drink beer up there..

J: The McCoy?

TC: Yeah. Stay a...stay a half a night. They'd come on Saturday morning and stay all day Saturday and set there and drink that beer. The old man and the one that they killed I can't think of his name at 'all and I can't think of the one's name that died. They found him across the river down here drunk. Just across the bridge.

J: That's the same brother your talkin' about?

TC: Yeah. Yeah. They found him dead.

J: Now was Allen tryin' to arrest this guy for somethin' when the shooting occurred?

TC: He had arrested him.

J: Oh, I see.

TC: He arrested him, I believe, in the...and Ernest Ward together and they was cussin' Allen and tryin' to fight or something and Allen just hauled off and killed him. I don't think uh...I never did think Allen did right when he did it. I didn't think he had to. I've always said that cause I know the McCoy boy. He never did...he never did give me no trouble. I was constable there for four years and he never did...never did give me no trouble. Pretty bad to get drunk. His brother was a straight out drunk. He wouldn't harm you at all. If you caught him drunk out here, you'd put him in jail and the constable would get three dollars and a half for locking him up.

J: Bob said there was...there was talk ...

TC: He didn't pay the three dollars and a half. The county would pay you on a fee bill. You understand what I'm tellin' you? I was...

J: Not really.

TC: Yeah.

J: Explain that to me.

TC: I was Magistrate. I was Justice of Peace. Say it was you, say you was a drunk, and you didn't work. You wouldn't work, alright uh...you was drunk out on the street there. People didn't want you walkin' up and down the street drunk. They want to get rid of you. The constable would come out and get you and put you in the lock up over there and he'd bring you over to me in the morning for being drunk today and I'd try you in the morning, he would take you all the way down to the jail. He got three dollars and a half. I got three dollars and a half for tryin' you. I'd turn in a fee bill to the county and the county of Mingo would pay me.

J: Oh, I see.

TC: Cause that feller didn't have any money. Now if you had the money, I would fine you and you'd pay it.

J: Where was the...the lock-up for Matewan?

TC: Uh...Over across the railroad tracks to start with and then they built it over yonder where it is now. You know where it is now?

J: Yeah. Now the old one though is...

TC: The old one..

J: Is it that old?

TC: He was on the way with him. He was on the way with him right back here.

J: Now, was that the same jail that was the jail say back in the twenties?

TC: Yeah.

J: It was the same one?

TC: Same one.

J: And at one time, was also city hall. Is that right?

TC: Yah...yeah. City Hall in it. I stayed all night in that jail. (laughing)

J: You did?

TC: Don't you doubt I haven't.

J: What for?

TC: Uh...they've put me in too.

J: What for?

TC: We had moonshine then. We had moonshine and home brew. Didn't have no whiskey and beer. Moonshine and homebrew.

J: Talkin' about the late twenties?

TC: Yeah.

J: yeah.

TC: NO, this was in the thirties too.

J: Ok.

TC: And uh...we had a big dance hall over on Pigeon Creek they called the Cozy Oak. Oh, it was a big one. About a hundred feet square. Beautiful. Nice big restaurant and everything and you had to have your moonshine cause you didn't have no liquor. Wudn't no liquor and beer. Moonshine and home brew. And we'd get a half gallon of moonshine and take it with us...and we all got over there and state police got us down there in the bottom and brought us all over and put us in there. A feller by the name of Mince Kennedy was with me and he wouldn't shut up at all. He like to kill me. If he just kept his mouth...

J: In jail you mean?

TC: Yeah. If he'd just (laughing) If he'd just kept his mouth shut. I could've...I could've went to sleep. But he wouldn't do it.

J: Was he one of your buddies?

TC: Yeah. He stood there and he stood there and cussed all night. The whole night. He never would stop. (laughing) And I just about died. It bout killed me.

J: YOu never could get back to the dance?

TC: NO. I had a good..I tell you what it was. It was on the fourth of July night and I had a brand new suit on. Brand new. Man, I was really...I can remember I don't know what year it was but I can remember and what was worryin' me was that suit. I was...I ruined it. Hit was already ruined.

J: Yeah.

TC: You can just say throw it out in the garbage. It's then and gone.

J: Now, you sid the state police took you over there. Is that right? No...

TC: Yeah. State police. State police...

J: Did...did local police care too much if you were drinkin' moonshine.

TC: No..no...no they didn't care about it. They didn't care. they let you...they had moonshine everywhere. They wholesaled it. They wholesaled it.

J: Now how did that work...

TC: We had an old man that I was named after by the name of Tom Chafin and he...he made it. You ought to see a still in operation. You would really like it and I'm sure she would. You got a... worm...they called it a worm...

J: Yeah...tell me how...tell me how they work.

TC: Big copper worm and hit would go over to the barrel and hit would drip out. It would drip,. Well they put up the mash first they called it. Put all the stuff in. All the ingredients that you had to have and you let it work off and it'd take about a week for the mash to get just right to boil and to make the moonshine and then you use that big copper worm, you know they called it, you just twist it around and around and hit would go into the other barrel over there where your moonshine would go in and they'd then they would uh...take it out of the barrel and fill up a half a gallon and quart fruit jars with it. I remember use to be uh...back in the Hoover depression, uh...all...all families had fruit jars. They'd have five, six hundred or thousand fruit jars and I'm...I know my mother would. She had a thousand fruit jars and I remember that we'd steal a dozen fruit jars from her and a dozen fruit jars from somebody else. We'd take one of those fruit jars, you'd get you a half gallon of moonshine. That's what you'd get. Yeah.

J: What'd you have to pay for it? For the good stuff, the good moonshine?

TC: Uh...I believe it was two dollars for a half a gallon. Two dollars or either if you'd uh...bring a dozen fruit jars, half a gallon fruit jars, why you'd get it for that. A dozen and a half gallon fruit jars was about two dollars then. A dollar and a half two dollars. Every what it was.

J: Now, were the places in town you bought it or were they out...

TC: Out...

J: Out from town?

TC: Out...out. Yeah. They wudn't none in town. THey wudn't none in this town. Well,

J: So that night, they just kept you over night that night and then let you...turned you loose?

TC: Right. Um-hum. Yeah, they turned us loose. (laughing) that was a state police I believe...the county police or the city police wudn't involved in this to start with I don't think. But they just decided they'd..they was four or five of us. I guess they was carrying on a little bit too much. We had our girlfriend with us too, they didn't...they didn't bring them. They just took us.

J: Did your girlfriends drink moonshine too?

TC: Yeah. OH yeah. THey'd drink it too. (laughing) Sure, they'd drink it. I would call the square dance for them and they had a big restaurant and I got to eat free, too, for callin' the dance.

J: Un-hun.

TC: And a Hatfield uh...owned the building, Cozy Oak. A cousin of mine.

J: Now you've told me already but did you say this was in North Matewan?

TC: No, that was over on Pigeon Creek.

J: Pigeon Creek?

TC: Yeah. Um-hum. Yeah.

J: So do did they have live music for this...

TC: Oh yeah...yeah. Had a band right there.

J: Who were the musicians? Do you remember?

TC: Uh...had an old man lived here in Matewan and he had his crew. I can't think of his name now. Anyhow, they had two banjos, two guitars, an organ, a piano. They had it all. They had it all. And man, we...we really square danced.

J: Now, this was not just fourth of July, this was regular thing?

TC: This was regular. Every weekend. Every weekend. Saturday. Sunday. All the time.

J: Who taught yo how to call or did you just teach yourself?

TC: I taught myself I think. I had a girlfriend that lived in Williamson and I lived up Mate Creek you know, and she was a...she was a red head. Her name was Georgie Charles. Oh, she was good lookin' and she was one of the best dancers in the country. That's how I got acquainted with her. Dancin' with her and uh...they would put up uh...prize money but who...who would do the best dancin'.

J: Um-hum.

TC: And we'd win it most every time. Which uh...as hard up as I was then, she just got here half. She sure didn't get it all (laughing) I remember that. I remember we went up the road. Fork we called. Why do they call the road fork now, I forgot. Over there where Boony, Forest Hills, they had a big uh...they had a big dance hall up there and a big swimming pool out ont he porch and this dance hall was about a hundred and fifty feet long I believe and I almost that wide and uh...I remember all those hard times of course, I had a car, I had my own car then, I was stayin' home with my mother. Didn't have to pay no board or anything.

J: WHat kind of car did you have?

TC: I had a twenty-eight Chevrolet convertible. One of the prettiest on the road. Let the top down, boy, and it was something.

J: NO wonder you dance with the prettiest girl there.

TC: Wheel on the back. Had one of them big extra wheels on the back of it you know. You know how they put them on and uh...oh, I had the best lookin' car of anybody. They'd come far and near to look at my car. To see my car.

J: WHere'd you buy that car?

TC: Uh...I bought it here at Matewan. Right through the underpass up here. Old man ????? Williamson. Owned W & E Chevrolet. I owned half of that too one time.

J: Is that right?

TC: I forgot to tell you that. Yeah. I got into that.

J: Was that while you were still in the grocery business or later on?

TC: Uh...while I was still in the grocery business. And uh...a feller by the name of Pearlie Epling. He's dead now. He bought my half out. Uh...I sold it to him and he got along good. He got along good but it's out of business now. After I quit as uh... after my term...last term of sheriff was up, I went up and worked two months with them. I didn't work. I stayed up there with them.

J: Um-hum.

TC: Two months. One of my friends come in up there after they found out I was up there. I was up there three months, and one of my old time friends come in. He should've known how old I was. He was about my same...about the same age. He guessed me to be. That was in eighty-two I'm tellin' you. He guessed me to be fifty-eight. Feller that run the place was settin' there writin' and he knew how old I was, Marshall Staten, and I got mad because he though I was that old. I said, you know I don't look that old. He said "Well, now Tom, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but" said "you look every day of it. That old to me" (laughing)

J: Every day of fifty-eight.

TC: Yeah. Un-hun.

J: ANd you were what, seventy-one at that time? something like that?

TC: I was seventy-two I believe. (laughing) Yeah he called me fifty-eight. THey was uh...the circuit clerk of Mingo County was my friend but we was always doin' things to each other. Jack Webb was his name. He wanted to run again and they was uh...a chairman of the democrat party was about to run somebody else instead of him and he knew it. He came in my office and had an old couch over there. SHeriff's office and it'd be hard for you to get up off of it cause you go way down in it. Jack tried three times...real hard a straining hisself gettin' up and finally he got up. Chairman looked over at him and said "Lord how mercy Jack" said "I wouldn't wasn't you on a slate I've got anything to do with." Said "You can't run. You ain't even able to get up." And I eased my chair back without them a seein' me and I jumped, I jumped higher than this desk. He went out there door of the court house and met one of my good friends. Said "There tellin' the truth on Tom Chafin" said "he jumped through that plate glass door to get on any kind of a slate." (laughing)

J: Is that true:

TC: I guess it was. So uh...he was out on the front steps of the court house and I went out the next day and uh...my buddy done told me what he said about me. I said "you been talkin' about me." He was a cousin of mine. Now I'm a cousin to the Webb's too. He was a cousin of mine and he knows it. He knows real good just how close we are. I said, "You been talkin' about me and if you don't wait, I'm goin' right over across the street thair to the bank. Right there at the First National Bank. I'm gonna stand there all day and I'm gonna shake hands with everybody that comes along." I said "I know most of them too" And he come right back at me. He said "That's the truth." He knew I knew everybody and I said, "I'm gonna tell the truth on you." he begged me to tell me what it was. Tell him what it was, I said " Oh, it's gonna be the truth. I'm gonna tell the truth. I'm not gonna lie on you." Please tell me. All my buddies settin' there eight or ten old politicians, you know, wantin' to hear it. I said "I'm gonna tell everyone of them when I shake hands with them that I'm a cousin of yours" He'd already filed and was a runnin' and a campaignin' and he said, "Lord how mercy, don't do it 'til the primary election's over." (laughing) That didn't kill me.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection