Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Hawthorne Burgraff Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mic one...interviewer's microphone. July 6, 1989. Sound check on mic two...narrator's microphone. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center Oral History Project. Preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Hawthorne Burgraff, at his home in McAndrews, Kentucky. July 6th, is a Thursday, it's approximately two in the afternoon. This is a mic check on microphone number one, again. It's now June the seventh. The Burgraff interview has been postponed until this morning. And, check on microphone two, narrator's microphone or the Hawthorne Burgraff interview.

J: Mr. Burgraff, would you tell me your complete name and when and where you were born and the names of your parents, please?

Hawthorne Burgraff: Hawthorne Burgraff. I was borned in Williamson, West Virginia, March the fifth, nineteen and eleven.

J: And, your parents' names?

HB: My parents' name...my father was Fred Burgraff. My mother's name was Ollie Stafford Burgraff.

J: And, were their families from West Virginia?

HB: My father came from Rush, Kentucky. That was where he was born. He came to Williamson, West Virginia and worked in the mines before my...he and my mother was married.

J: And, where was your mother's family from?

HB: Here in Pike County, called Ransom, Kentucky.

J: Okay.

HB: She was borned there.

J: Did you have brothers and sisters?

HB: No brothers no sisters.

J: Okay. When did your family or your father move to the...to the Matewan...Tug Valley area?

HB: When I was arou...approximately six months old.

J: Okay. And, where did they live there?

HB: They lived above Matewan just about a half a mile called Greenrow. Next to the bridge that crossed to Kentucky...uh across the Tug River.

J: Greenrow?

HB: They called it Greenrow.

J: Now, your father was a lifelong coal miner. Is that correct?

HB: Lifelong coal miner. And, he served as deputy sheriff on one occasion. And, he also served under Sid Hatfield, the police chief of Matewan, West Virginia. He served as a special officer under Sid.

J: Special officer, would that be like a special deputy or...?

HB: Like a deputy, yes.

J: So that was an office that Sid appointed him to?

HB: It was an officer...office appointed, yes.

J: When he was uh...deputy sheriff, do you recall who the sheriff was at that time?

HB: Greenway Hatfield.

J: Greenway? Okay. So was...I know Greenway Hatfield was a Republican, did your father have a party affiliation or...

HB: Well, he didn't really have a party affiliation. Greenway and my father were great friends.

J: Did you know Greenway?

HB: I didn't know Greenway too well. I was much too young.

J: He was a pretty powerful political figure in Mingo County, wasn't he?

HB: Yes, he was. He was a very powerful political leader.

J: Okay. Now...when your father was special officer for Sid Hatfield, I assume that was in around, what, 1919 or 1920?

HB: 1919 or 1920.

J: Okay. Did Sid Hatfield have other special officers that you were aware of?

HB: Not that I was aware of.

J: Okay. And, what would your fathers duties have been as a special officer?

HB: He was to assist Sid when he needed him as sort of a backup man. For Sid...in case he needed help.

J: Okay. That's his assisting in an arrest or that type of thing?

HB: Yeah, yeah.

J: Okay. What...did your father ever express to you personal feelings about Sid Hatfield?

HB: He and Sid were great friends. I often heard my father say that he did not condone some of the activities of Sid, but they were great friends.

J: Uh-huh. Would these activities be of a personal nature or associated with Sid's law enforcement.

HB: Some were personal nature.

J: Before we get into the real recreation of the...of the...what your father has...has told you or what you know about the strike or Massacre itself, I'm gonna ask you one specific question. Did your father ever mention anything about the rumor that Sid Hatfield shot Mayor Testerman?

HB: That rumor spread around, but, my father denied it. And, uh ...I would say that he uh...the rumor that Sid might be...courting the wife of Cable Testerman to mayor, that was a rumor that my father said he knew nothin' about.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: He wasn't concerned about it...or seemingly he was not.

J: How did your father get involved in the union?

HB: Well, when the union was first organized, he was...I don't know exactly what his position was, but he was a leader.

J: And...

HB: He helped to organize the first union.

J: Now, was he organizing in Matewan?

HB: He helped organize in Matewan. He worked 'ere in the mines at Matewan.

J: Uh-huh. What company was he working for?

HB: Stone Mountain Coal Company.

J: Stone Mountain. Okay. And, had he been working for Stone Mountain ever since the time you all moved to Matewan?

HB: Well, I...I'm not sure of that. He worked uh...great length of time for Stone Mountain until the strike...after the strike, you know, they were all cut off. Had this strike and he went to work for Magnolia Coal Company. And, uh...course, I'm just telling you from what I can remember as a young boy.

J: Uh-huh. Was your father fired for his union activity at one point?

HB: All of 'em were. All of the men engaged in this massacre were fired.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: They either worked in the mines or around the mines, but they were engaged in the activity of mining.

J: When the strike began, was your family living in company owned housing?

HB: No, we were not living in a company owned house. We were living in a private property owned my by my mother's aunt.

J: And, you continued to live there throughout the strike?

HB: Yeah. Most of the miners were living in tents. We never lived in a tent. Because my mother's aunt gave us a place to live.

J: How did the uh...the striking families manage to survive while the strike was going on?

HB: Well, the foodstuff came in at regular times and the clothing and the food, and they were able to survive on that.

J: Was this clothing and food supplied exclusively by the union or did private donors also...?

HB: Private donors and the union.

J: Now, your father's work as an organizer, I assume he must have worked closely with a man named Charlie Kiser?

HB: He...if you notice the picture of the...the defendants in the case, Charlie was next to him. And, Charlie, you know, became one of the great organizers of the United Mine Workers. He was district field man. He and my father were great friends. And, uh...at my fathers death, he was the...at the uh...Charlie Kiser had a great marble block placed on my father's grave. And, it said for "distinguished services in uniting and helping in organizing the mine workers union." And, that block is still there on my father's grave.

J: Where is your father buried?

HB: Down here on Coeburn Mountain.

J: Coeburn Mountain? And, when did he die?

HB: I'm not exactly sure. I think it was 1949.

J: Okay. And, you were saying earlier that he worked in the mines right up until the day before he died?

HB: The week before he died. He died with a heart attack.

J: Did he have any uh...physical or health problems related to his work that you know of? Black lung or anything like that?

HB: No, he didn't have that. Or, he never was uh...diagnosed as having any lung trouble. Although he worked in the mines since he was eleven years old.

J: On the day of the "Battle of Matewan", May 19th, 1920, give me some of the background to that. Were the, were the people in town and the miners expecting something to happen? Just exactly what was goin' on?

HB: Well, there was a cloud hanging over the entire town. Because there'd been trouble, you know, among the miners and the operators. There'd been several fights in town. Superintendent of the mines, at Stone Mountain Coal Company, they'd beat up on him a time or two.

J: Some of the union people?

HB: Yeah. And, uh...the Red Jacket Coal Company was operating... still operating. And, when they would come into town, there would be fights because they were nonunion.

J: And, this was the period on...then when your...when your father was a special deputy, I guess?

HB: He was special deputy under Sid.

J: Uh-huh. When the Baldwin-Felts detectives came to Matewan, what happened then. I mean, I know you know, so, I'm not gonna' limit the questions at all.

HB: What I'm gonna' tell you is exactly what my father told me.

J: Great.

HB: When they arrived in Matewan and got off the train, they had their satchels with 'em. We called 'em grips back then, they call 'em satchels, suitcases or whatever. But, they had in those suitcases submachine guns. They called 'em Thompson submachine gun. Of course, they wore their pistols on their sides because they were officers of the law. But, when they got off of the train in Matewan, Sid and my father walked over to Albert Felts, he was the leader of the Baldwin Felts detectives, but, he was not the owner. The owner was Lee Felts...Lee Felts and he stayed in Welch. They got off the train and my father and Sid walked over to Albert Felts, introduced themselves and asked him what he was doing down 'ere. And, Albert said "we've come down here on a job. The coal company has asked us to put those people out of the houses, and that is what our intentions are. We're strictly goin' to do that". It was Sid who said, "well, you know that is goin' to lead to trouble." And, Albert Felts said, "well, we're prepared to take care of any trouble that might come our way, we're trained men. And, my advice to you is not to interfere with the Baldwin-Felts Detectives." But, it was my father and Sid who left and went back over the tracks into Matewan and the Detective Force went over to the camps and started their job of putting people out of the house. My brother...my daddy's brother Albert lived in one of the houses. So, they moved out one family, after another...maybe one or two to set an example of what was going to happen. And, when they arrived at my daddy's brother Albert's house, he...Albert married my mother's sister, Albert Burgraff (did). So, it was Mrs. Burgraff who said to the detective force, "Don't move my stuff out in the rain, I'll move out myself." And, they let her go. And, she started taking little things out, as though she was going to complete the assignment, but she didn't. So, after seeing them people, that were involved in this thing, beginning to uh...begin to move out themselves, why, they thought their job was complete, you see. 'Course, there was several fights in the time of it. The detective knocked some fellows down and shot a few times, you know, to show their force, to show their power. Then, when the assignment ...according to the Baldwin-Felts Detective...was complete, they came back into the town of Matewan. Cable Testerman was a mayor of the city. And, Albert Felts had written out a warrant for the arrest of Sid Hatfield. He was going to take him back to Welch for trial, for interfering with the work of the Baldwin-Felts Detective Force. He handed the warrant up to Cable Testerman on Main Street in Matewan. He handed the bogus warrant up to Cable Testerman and Cable read it and he said, "this warrant is not worth the paper that it is written on". At that time, Albert Felts had on a raincoat because it was raining. Through the raincoat, he shot Cable Testerman in the stomach with his pistol. When that happened, Cable fell on the streetwalk 'ere and they drug him back into his jewelry shop. He was staning right of outside his jewelry shop. They drug him back in there and that evening they put him on train to take him to Bluefield, I think. And, he died before he reached...(Bluefield). He was a large man, I guess he weighed three or four hundred pounds. But, that started it. It was just a powder keg sitting there waiting. And, because it started the shooting right there. Well, the detective force knew they were not going to be able to handle this with pistols, so, they tried to get their satchels open to get the submachine guns out. But, some of 'em were killed in trying to get 'em out. What was left started running, trying to find shelter. And, they began to pick 'em off as they tried to find shelter. Albert Felts run down to the post office and found shelter there. But, Sid went after him. Because he knew he needed to get rid of that fellow. So, as he approached the post office, he hollered in and told Albert, said to, "come out and shoot it out like a man", and my father said Albert said, "if you want me, come and get me". Well, they started pouring their bullets into the post office and Albert came out shooting and Sid killed him. The rest of 'em tried to...couldn't find shelter or they headed towards the river, try to make a swim for it to the other side, Kentucky side. Most of 'em were picked off trying to reach the river. But, one of 'em did reach the river and got away. The ones that were killed were dragged back to the railroad tracks. And, that evening, as the train come in, they loaded 'em into the baggage car, picked 'em up by their heads and their feet, throwed 'em in the baggage car. That's the way they left Matewan going back to Welch.

J: There's a story that weapons for the miners were available at uh...Chambers Hardware...at the Chambers' store.

HB: Well, Chamber's Hardware, as we knew it back then, was run by a fellow who was later to become sheriff of the county, called him Broggs Chambers. And, he was very much concerned about the union and the miners. And, I'm not sure that they bought their guns there, but, I'm assuming that they did and I don't know. I heard my...I didn't hear my father say. But the supply of guns were... was a normal thing. They came as they needed it. I mean they came in from various sources as were needed. So, I don't know if Chambers was involved, I imagine he was. Because he...uh...he was a mine worker friend, and he run the hardware.

J: Was your father right around the area where Sid and Cable Testerman were then, when the shooting began?

HB: He was in the area, yes. Because he knew what was happening. He wasn't shot but he had a bullet hole in his vest. The bullet didn't penetrate, but it went through his vest.

J: Now, in the time between the time that the Baldwin-Felts agents first got to town and then started their trip to put the people out of the housing, between that time and the time that the shooting started, had word spread around the valley?

HB: Word spread, of course. And, like I say there were children there on the streets of Matewan. Albert, my daddy's brother, took those children to the Methodist Church, to get them off the streets. Because, they realized that when the Baldwin Felts Detectives came back to Matewan, there was evidently going to be trouble, or they felt they were. It surely happened as they expected. I assume that the miners were well prepared to take care of whatever trouble came. They were ready. Had the Baldwin-Felts Detectives had been better prepared, it would have been more dangerous; more lives would have been lost. But they had their guns locked away, the submachine guns. Had they got those machine guns out, I think, perhaps, there'd been a lot of people killed. There was one innocent bystander, he was a young boy. I don't know what his age was, but, he was a young man, young boy. He was shot in the back by the Baldwin Felts Detectives, as he ran, trying to get away. His name was Tot Tinsley. (Clarence is his name - Tot is nickname)

J: Tot Tinsley?

HB: Other than that, I don't know of anybody else that was not connected with the union that was killed. There may have been some shot. I didn't know about it. I knew my daddy had a pretty close call. He had a bullet through his vest.

J: Hum. How many men were downtown when this was goin' on. Did you father ever mention...?

HB: All you see in the picture. All those men that are...were defendants in the case were there.

J: And, how about Baldwin-Felts agents?

HB: They were eleven of them.

J: Eleven?

HB: I think there were. I believe that there were ten of them killed and one of them got away. He crossed the river, got on to Kentucky side. They never did hear from him...don't know what happened to him.

J: Now, how did your...you say it was your Uncle Albert that had the children in the church? How did he manage to keep 'em there?

HB: By playing music and singing, you know. Just anything to entertain them to keep them there. That's what he was doin'.

J: Which church was this?

HB: Methodist Church in Matewan.

J: Methodist Church, okay. Do you oh...excuse me.

HB: Had it not been for him, I think that probably alot of those children would have been killed. They took him as one of the defendants in the case to Williamson. But, the judge turned him loose when he found out what he had done. He wasn't involved in this so they turned him loose.

J: So he was one of the original defendants then that they...?

HB: Yeah. It's my daddy's youngest brother Albert.

J: Do you recall what you were doin' when you found out about all of this as a child. That that night, for instance, do you remember that night at all?

HB: Ah, I can barely remember what was happening. Like I said, all that I'm saying is what my father has told me. I was about ten years old at that time. You don't have...you don't have much to remember there. I mean, I was not actually involved in anything I...wudn't in even in the city, at the time. But, I remember on one occasion, you know afterwards...after the massacre, Sid and uh...Ed Chambers were called on to go to Welch and stand trial. I guess you've heard about that. So, I went with my father that morning that Sid and Ed got on the train to go to Welch. I remember very well, my father took out of his inside pocket a snub nose thirty-eight special, and gave it to Sid and said, "Sid, you better put this in your pocket. I feel like you're gonna' need it." And Sid handed it back to my daddy and said, "now, Fred, the state police has promised me all the protection I'll need. And, I'm not gonna' take this gun, because they'll try to involve me in something if I take the gun. So, under their protection, I think I'll be alright." (Sid) Handed the gun back to my daddy and (he) put it down in his pocket. And, we left the scene as the train pulled out. That's the last time I saw Sid. And, the last time my daddy saw him, except, when they brought him back...as a corpse. He and Ed both were killed. I see their widows picture in the pamphlet. Ah...Ed married a woman by the name of Starr and Sid married Cable Testerman's wife...widow.

J: When uh...when they brought Sid and Ed back uh...were they... were their bodies being held at the uh...would it have been the Chambers funeral home, at that time?

HB: I don't know whether they called it Chamber's funeral home or not but they had one...just had one establishment in Matewan... mortuary. I don't know what the name of it was, at that time.

J: Do you recall where it was?

HB: It was on Main Street there, somewhere. I don't know exactly where. I see it's listed, in that picture they have there. But, I don't know exactly where it was. Don't ever remember being in it. But, that's the biggest funeral ever held.

J: Did you go?

HB: Yeah.

J: Yeah. What was that like?

HB: Well, it was like a marching army of people.

HB: I think the greatest number of people I ever seen in Matewan in my life, was there them days.

J: Did the procession go all the way to the cemetery from down... from Matewan?

HB: They went to the cemetery, yeah, marching. Great number of people, I've ever saw. As a young boy never saw a crowd like that. That created a movement that started and it just uh...it's like a snowball. It just begin to start and the movement would move greater and greater and trouble....

J: Were...were the...any of the union men from around uh...the Matewan area involved in the, so called, miners march.

HB: The miners march where?

J: Well, actually, I believe it got stopped in Logan County somewhere.

HB: On Blair Mountain?

J: On Blair Mountain, yeah.

HB: Well, they didn't march, they went in trucks. I remember watching my daddy get in the truck. They went in trucks and wagons and...they didn't march. They went up towards North Matewan crossed what they call Mary Taylor Mountain and took the road into Island Creek. And, they were met on Blair Mountain and, 'course, that's where the battle started.

J: When your father and the other defendants were tried in Williamson, did you attend any of the court sessions?

HB: No, I didn't attend any of the court sessions at all. My mother stayed down there all the time. She assisted the jailer in preparing meals. And, she stayed in Williamson, during the time my daddy was there. But, I remember on one occasion, they brought the jury back from Williamson to go over the...go over in Matewan and see some of the events that happened. They couldn't understand some of it, couldn't put it together. So, they brought the jury back, to go down to the Mate Street and see the bullet holes, and down the alleys, and go over the whole scene to let them get a clear view of it. I remember on that occasion, I got hold my daddy's hand and marched with him.

J: Was he explaining to anybody what had happened, or was he just...he just...he was there?

HB: He was answering questions that were put to him, is all.

J: Were all the other defendants there as well?

HB: Yeah, all of them. Yeah, everyone...they were guarded by State Police.

J: Now, that trial lasted approximately nine or ten weeks, didn't it?

HB: Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember the two lawyers that were defending the miners and their names were Couniff and Ferguson. No, it's Houston and Couiff. And, my daddy's brother Albert named one of his boys Houston.

J: That'd be Harold Houston, I guess?

HB: He's in Matewan now. Houston (Burgraff).

J: Is that right?

HB: I got several first cousins over there. But...we're double first cousins. But, now, they know nothin' about this, because they weren't old enough.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I'm eighty-seven. I mean seventy-eight. Most of the people that knew anything about it are dead. So, there's very few of them can say. "he's wrong about so and so", you know. And, like I said, I'm just giving you statements that my daddy told me the story. But, he was involved, he knew what he was talking about.

J: Did he discuss...in later years, did he discuss the trial with you very often?

HB: No. He didn't discuss the trial. But, he uh...he oft' times said, `he'd give anything in the world if he...not have some of the memories that he did have.' So he didn't...he didn't itemize anything or state anything. He just said "well, I'd give anything in the world if I could recall, and get away from that trouble scene." So, it must have been something that he kept in the background of his mind, or the subconscious, 'cause, I could tell. He'd get to drinkin' a little bit, he'd cry about it, you know. 'Cause the memories were embedded pretty deeply. I don't know, he never discussed intimately with me what had happened, or how it happened. But he just told me the story directly, as it happened, you know.

J: Did your father continue to...I know he continued working in he mines...but, did he continue to be involved with the union in later years?

HB: Oh, yeah. We moved from West Virginia to Kentucky about 1930. I graduated from high school in '29.

J: From Matewan High School?

HB: Matewan High School. I won a scholarship to college, Morris Harvey.

J: And, then, did you accept the scholarship?

HB: I didn't accept the scholarship because my father was making about two dollars a day working in the coal mines. And, that (college) was about ten or twelve dollars. And, I knew I couldn't afford it, unless, I could get a job at the college, which I couldn't get, so I didn't go.

J: Did you begin work yourself, then?

HB: Yeah. I begin work at various jobs. And, then, finally went in the mines to work. I worked in the mines up 'til nineteen and sixty, at different mines. I worked at Octavia mines, Turney Mining and Eastern Coal Company, Pittston. And, I would do about anything and everything in the mines. I was foreman for many years.

J: In...at Octavia?

HB: Yeah. Octavia Coal Company, Turney Mining Company and Pittston. And, I have a miner's pension.

J: Were the miners uh...when you were associated with the mining industry, were they aware of the of the...of the labor struggles of the early twenties? Was it things that anybody talked about very often?

HB: Very few people ever talked about it. But, you see, under John L. Lewis, miners' union became a strong force, a powerful force. They could shut down the nation. Because, there were five hundred thousand coal miners at that time. If John L. said,"this is it, we were walking out," they would shut it down completely. And, his idea was "no contract, no work" and that was it. If you didn't get a contract on the first of April, you didn't work. And, even during the war (WW II) shut them down for awhile. He was a vital force in the union, United Mine Workers.

J: Were the contracts year to year or did they have multi-year contracts?

HB: Not until later on, they had multi year contracts. But, usually when...when I was workin' in the mines, it was from year-to-year.

J: So, your father lived then to see the union be real strong force?

HB: Oh yeah, yeah.

J: How did he feel about that? Did he ever discuss it.

HB: Oh...he was a...he was always a dyed in the wool United Mine Worker. And, uh...any man that abused the Mine Worker's Union, by conversation, or, by any other means become his enemy. He was not a radical, but he was a United Mine Worker.

J: Did he hold office in any of the locals?

HB: Yeah. He held office in the Octavia local, up here. He held several offices up there. But, they recognized him, all, as being a leader.

J: I'm gonna ask you about a few of the people in...in Matewan just to see if you recall your father ever saying anything about them, or your own impressions about them. I'm sure you'll have independent opinions of them. How about Mr. Lively, C. E. Lively?

HB: C. E. Lively........was a Judas, he was a Judas. He came down from the uh...the Baldwin-Felts Detectives. He was a member of their force. He came to Matewan and put up a restaurant. Upstairs over the restaurant he gave a...gave all the room to the United Mine Workers for their meetings. He attended the meetings. But, he always relayed the conversation and what was going on back to the force in Welch. He was a traitor. And, finally they found out that he was a traitor. So, they got pretty hot on him and he had to leave. And, then there was another traitor there, I've forgotten his first name, but he was a Hatfield. So, he was carryin' messages, he was going to the union meetings and carrying all messages back to the other force. And, one night he was sitting in front of the Urias Hotel, light was on, after dark. (The) train went by and sharp bullets sound right quick and he hit him right there, that was the last of him. And, that's what they had in mind for Lively, had he not skipped out during the night. They would've killed him. He and Sid had a fistfight, time or two. And, it's a wonder Sid hadn't killed him.

J: Sid and Lively had fistfights?

HB: Yeah.

J: Sid was...was pretty rugged in that way, wasn't he?

HB: Rugged character. He'd fight in a minute (laughing). And, it didn't take much to get him riled up. But, he had a heart of gold. He'd do anything in the world for you. That's my remembrance of him.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But, he was mean.

J: The...the shooting that you mentioned of the Hatfield, I believe that must be Anse Hatfield.

HB: Could've been his name. I've forgotten what his name was. He was a Hatfield.

J: That shooting was never...was never solved. Did your father ever offer any opinion about uh...about who did that shooting?

HB: Evidently, my father knew, but, he never said. But, I am assuming that he knew. The man who did that job was an expert rifleman man. Because, the bullet went right straight in. And, from...it was happening from the railroad.

J: Yeah.

HB: I guess from about three hundred yards, I guess, or four hundred yards.

J: Did the bullet actually go between the cars of a moving train?

HB: I think my father said that the shot was fired during the moving train, to keep the sound down. He always thought that was true.

J: Uh-huh.

HB: But, he never mentioned a name.

J: I don't...nobody was ever tried or prosecuted for that?

HB: No...not that I ever knew. If you came to Matewan trying to ask questions, nobody would answer. You didn't get 'em...you didn't corner a person and talk to them and get some kind of an answer. You didn't do it. If they knew, they didn't say.

J: Is it safe to say that Matewan was a union stronghold?

HB: Yeah. People from Williamson going to Matewan, they got down in the floor of the train. Engineer and all of them got down. 'Cause they...not that the trains were fired on, I don't think they ever were, but, they were just afraid. That was a gunpowder keg, Matewan was.

J: Wow! After the...the events of the...the strike, and the massacre and the shooting of Sid and Ed Chambers, and the conflict at Blair Mountain, did things ever really get back to normal, or was there constant tension in the area?

HB: Well, there...I thought at the time of Blair Mountain and after that, I thought things were getting back to normal. But, above Matewan...what they call Blackberry City...the miners still were in tents, you know, and their families. And, the Alburn Coal Company across the river on the Kentucky side was a nonunion mine. And, their conflict started when the people from the Alburn Coal Company began shooting into the tents of the miners on the West Virginia side, at Blackberry City. Well, that created a small war. The miners from Matewan began to take to the mountains. They'd go up and get in position to fire on the people over at Auburn across the river. And, I heard my father say that he saw the train stop many times and they'd take off ten - twelve caskets. So, the people that started it over on the Kentucky side, were the ones that got the worst end of it. They'd go up, hundreds of 'em would go up the hill, reach the top of the ridge and go around to where they could get into position with a high powered rifles and shoot across the river. And, they just about killed those people out over there. No one ever knew just exactly how many died in that conflict.

J: I was gonna say, that's...nobody ever really knows a number, do they?

HB: But, they unloaded caskets off'n the train. So, there's bound to be somebody dead.

J: How 'bout a man named Reece Chambers. Did you know Reece Chambers?

HB: I knew Reece. He was the father of Ed, the boy got killed. Reece was an elderly man, big physical man. He was a great strong man. But, he was old. But, he was one of the leaders. My daddy's one great friend, they were great friends. Now, Reece was a man that come at you with both fists flying. He didn't care for nothin', rough, tumble fighter.

J: There's a story about him sitting on his front porch and when the trains came by, there were agents on the trains trying to pick him off. Have you ever hear that story?

HB: Yeah, I've heard that story. My daddy had...I remember one time my daddy said, "Reece, you don't take care of yourself. Keep puttin' yourself out where people can see you, they gonna kill you. Old train gonna' come by one day and your gonna be a layin' out in the yard." But, he...didn't care. He...he was a tomcat, mean fellow.

J: Mean?

HB: Yeah.

J: Who became the police chief after Sid, do you remember?

HB: No, I don't remember now. I uh...That's gone back to far for me. I can't remember who came in as police chief.

J: When the strike was in progress, 1920, '21, did you kids continue to go to school?

HB: Yeah. Right on...never missed a day.

J: Is that right?

HB: And, had good clothes to wear. The union provided feed and clothes. I don't know what other source they had, but we had plenty to eat and plenty to wear, for school.

J: You always hear stories about...in downtown Matewan of being kind of a wide open town. Lot of bootleggin' and gambling and pool shootin', is that true ?

HB: Pretty wild, pretty wild.

J: Was it?

HB: Pretty wild. Even back when I was a boy, it was pretty wild. They had a saloon in Matewan, you know. And, there was a lot of trouble going on there. I remember on one occasion I heard two fellas...they were enemies...they met up and they decided to kill each other. They took hands and held each other and shot each other to death.

J: Was that downtown someplace?

HB: That's downtown there in Matewan, somewhere. I heard my father talk about it. I'm givin' you a pretty bad picture of Matewan.

J: (Laughing) No, that's just...that just, slice of life.

HB: Things happened there that was pretty rough, even back when I was a boy. Yet, they were good people there...good people. They were...the Chambers family and the McCoy family, they had their rough spots, but, they were...they were good people. Now the Hatfields were pretty rough...all of them were.

J: They were pretty tied into politics, weren't they?

HB: Yeah.

J: Was there any con..uh...conflict between the Chambers and the Hatfields?

HB: I don't think there were any real contact, no conflict, that I know of.

J: What sort of things did you kids do for entertainment when you were growing up there?

HB: We had the old sandlot football and baseball, you know, down on the riverbank. And, we'd, swim in Tug River. We didn't have any private places to swim. There wudn't anything like backyard pools, back then. So, we went to Tug River to swim. And, we played tennis and baseball in the sandlots. We had one theater in Matewan. So, we'd congregate there. And...and they...we didn't have any supervised training or anything like that, you know, entertainment. But we'd found sources of entertainment for ourselves, you know, playing ball going to parties and theater.

J: Did you go down to meet the trains? Several people have mentioned that that was a form of entertainment.

HB: Yeah. We'd meet the trains...that was one big thing. Go to church on Sunday.

J: Which...which church did you all go to?

HB: I went to the Methodist Church all my life. I've been a Methodist minister forty years.

J: Oh really. Where was that?

HB: All over Pike County. I've pastored churches at Belfry, and Stone, and Hardy and Freeburn, and Aldergate. I been all over Pike County.

J: So you moved from church to church?

HB: The longest time at one church was ten year. I was building a church then.

J: Which one was that?

HB: That's the Belfry Methodist. Then, I worked fifteen years at the Kentucky Revenue department, as a field representative in the tax department.

J: Was this after you left the mines?

HB: Yeah. Oh, I'm a Kentucky Colonel. (Laughing) I've done quite a few things. I've done everything.

J: When uh...when did you..or have you given up preachin'? Did you give up preaching?

HB: I'm a retired minister. They call be back every once in awhile to pinch-hit, you know. Someone on vacations, anytime I can help you know, I go back.

J: Did you ever participate in uh...preaching in revival meetings?

HB: I held one revival, during the time I was in the ministry.

J: When did you get married?

HB: I got married August the sixth, 1934. Been married fifty-five years.

J: And, what was your wife's maiden name?

HB: She was Mae Daughtery Burgraff. Excuse me. (Leaves room)

J: Yeah. (tape cuts off)

J: Do you all have any children?

HB: Have three.

J: Three?

HB: Two boys and a girl.

J: Do they live in this area or have they moved away?

HB: I have a boy lives in Williamson. One in Owensboro, Kentucky. A girl lives in Paintsville Kentucky. Five...seven grandchildren and three great-grandchildren.

J: Have they shown any curiosity or interest in the uh...the union struggles that your father was involved in or your work with uh...

HB: I have one son that lives in Williamson that worked for a coal company until they shut down, that's at Rawl, West Virginia. And, uh...he worked there, I don't know how many years. But, he...they shut down and he was cut off. And, now he's with the floodwall down in Williamson. I have a son in Owensboro that's been retired from teaching profession. I have a daughter that lives in Paintsville. And, she was also a teacher. She has her master's degree. So does my oldest son. And, my youngest son has about three hours to complete his degree. I have a grand-daughter that's associate professor at the college at Mate...in Williamson. Been married to the same woman for fifty-five years (Laughing)

J: You uh...you mentioned earlier that your uh...your father was bothered by some of the events of the '20's. Did this have any negative effect on your mother's and father's marriage? Or did they have a good strong marriage?

HB: They had a strong marriage. My mother lived to be seventy-four. Daddy died at sixty-three. 'Course he'd been in the mines since he was eleven years old. Strong man, but, his heart gave out on him.

J: Is there any...Oh excuse me...

HB: He wouldn't quit. Doctors ordered him to give up and just retire, he wouldn't do it.

J: He didn't want to do that huh? Is there anything we haven't discussed that you feel like we should include in uh...the interview?

HB: Well, I told you I was a graduate of Matewan High School...

J: Okay.

HB: In 1929...and I was brought up in the Methodist Church in Matewan.

J: Did your folks go to church with you?

HB: My mother did. My father, rarely, if ever, was in church. He was a good man...he was a honest man. A man of integrity but he just...you couldn't get him to go to church.

J: Who was some of the pastors when you were growing up in Matewan at your church?

HB: What?

J: The ministers at your church.

HB: Um. I can remember well they was one pastor in particular my the name of Gose...Gose. G.O.S.E. He had a son lived in Matewan there for a long time. He's dead now, I think. But, Gose was the pastor the of Matewan Methodist. A very good man...a good preacher.

HB: Was the pastor of Matewan Methodist. Very good man...good preacher.

J: One of the churches, I've been told, was...was used for union meetings. Do you know which one that was?

HB: Use for a union meeting?

J: Uh-huh.

HB: I don't now anything about that. (tape cuts off)

J: What size uh...was your high school class, approximately?

HB: We had twenty-one girls and ten boys. And, I think I'm the only one living out of...of the boys.

J: Is that right?

HB: Twenty-one girls and ten boys. I was editor of the school paper.

J: What was the name of school paper?

HB: I think it was the "Green Echo".

J: The "Green Echo?" How did you get to be editor?

HB: I was elected.

J: Elected by the rest of the class or by the staff?

HB: By the staff.

J: How often did you put out the paper?

HB: We had...were monthly published paper.

J: You wouldn't happen to know anybody's that got any of those old papers would ya?

HB: I wish I did. I'd like to have one myself.

J: It'd be something to have, wouldn't it?

HB: I'd like to have one.

J: When did you begin uh...your uh...your preaching career and how? How did you get involved in that?

HB: I went into the ministry about...about 1949. I'd taught Sunday school class for a great number of years. And, uh...pastor of the church got me interested in taking the course of study and to pass the examination for a preacher's license. And, they talked me into it. I...so I started the course of study and eventually when it come time to take the examination, I passed. So, I went into the ministry.

J: Now, how does that work, the course of study? Did you take it through a...like a correspondence course?

HB: No. They...you buy the books, you know. You take the course of study according to books of Methodist Church. They uh...they prescribe what you're to study. And, then, you go before the uh... board...the examining board and for an oral examination, and they pass on whether you're to receive your license or not.

J: Now did you study for these exams under the direction of this minister who had recommended you?

HB: Yeah. Yeah.

J: And, who was that?

HB: Charles...Charles Perry. He was pastor of the church, at that time.

J: Do you remember....you would have...you would have been awfully young, you may not remember this at all, but, the uh...the flu epidemic hitting Matewan after World War I.

HB: I remember my father and I were in one bed. My mother and her sister were in the other bed. We were all down with the flu. And, my father's sister came to wait on us. Had it not been for her, we wouldn't a had anybody to cook the meal or... I was very small, but, I remember my father and I were on one bed and my mother and sister the in other bed. And, the...his sister, Elizabeth came to wait on us. That's all I remember about the flu epidemic. However, I can remember that there couldn't be enough caskets brought in to Matewan. The people dying that fast.

J: Did the doctor ever come to treat you while you were sick?

HB: Yeah. He came, but he was so busy. He would probably have to see a hundred people in a day.

J: Who was the doctor then?

HB: We had only doctor named Sorrell. Was the one I remember, Dr. Sorrell. He finally took the flu himself and died.

J: Is that right? Was there really anything, any medication, they could give you or did they just try to keep you comfortable and hope it would pass?

HB: Well, you know, they...each of those doctors back in that time carried a little black satchel. And, he would come and give us pills out of this satchel. So many for me and my dad, and my mother and her sister. And, he would tell Elizabeth, my daddy's sister, how many of them to give and when to give them, you know. The instructions were all given to her. So she give us the pills as...as they were due, and we got over it.

J: Now, Elizabeth never got the flu?

HB: Never, that I know of uh...She claimed that the way she kept from taking it. why, she'd get a shot of moonshine every once in awhile, you know. (laughter)

J: That kept it...fought it off, huh?

HB: Yeah. She liked to drink you know. She hit the bottle whenever she wanted to but she was a strong vital woman. About six foot tall, big, strong. But she'd take her a snort, you know. Do that every day. She said that's what kept her from taking the flu. And, I imagine it did, because, she didn't have it. (laughing)

J: Did she have a family that she took care of normally or did she...was she involved with some kind of business in town?

HB: She was single. She didn't...she wudn't married. She worked in a restaurant, too.

J: Which uh...which restaurant?

HB: Uh...I (don't) remember there was a restaurant there in Matewan. I don't know which one it was.

J: And....

HB: She was a dead shot with a pistol.

J: Is that right?

HB: Dead shot.

J: Is this your father's sister?

HB: Father's sister.

J: Elizabeth Burgraff. Did you ever see her shoot?

HB: I've seen her shoot bottles that high off of railings. (Holds fingers about 3 inches apart)

J: With a pistol?

HB: You didn't mess with her, too...

J: She'd cuff you one huh?

HB: Yeah. She finally got married. She married uh...Louis Anselmi. And, he got to trying to beat up on her one time, and she shot him in the leg.

J: Is that right? Did they stay married?

HB: Yeah, (laughing) they stayed married. But, he knew where his end of the house was.

J: (Laughing). Now a couple of people have mentioned a woman to me named Babe Burgraff. Is that Elizabeth?

HB: That's Elizabeth. She was a crack shot with a pistol. And, you didn't fool with her.

J: Did she and Louis have any children?

HB: No.

J: Where did she manage to get this moonshine?

HB: It was probably right there in Matewan. You can get it anywhere?

J: Not too hard to come by, huh?

HB: No! If you're interested, why, you found the place to get it. If you had the money.

J: Was there a bootlegger in Matewan named Aunt Carrie?

HB: Who?

J: Aunt Carrie that you're familiar with?

HB: I've heard that name so many times. And, I don't remember now whether she was white or black, but I remember that name. And, she bootlegged too, I think.

J: What about uh...the Klu-Klux-Klan. Was the Klan in Matewan or in the area?

HB: They had that in the area. I remember several times uh... Reverend Gose was the pastor of the Methodist Church...I remember on a Sunday night uh...without provocation or anything they just opened the door and come marching down the aisle of the church and they'd put in a donation in the plate, and march back out.

J: These are Klan...Klansmen?

HB: Yeah. All dressed up in white.

J: Wearing their hoods?

HB: Uh-huh. I remember several times they come into the Methodist Church. They didn't uh...unless they posted themselves with the pastor...I don't know whether he knew they were coming or not. But, they just opened the door and here they come.

J: But, nobody could really tell who they were, I guess?

HB: No. You never knew who they were.

J: What other type things did they do uh...were they...?

HB: Well if you were, if you'd left your wife and children and wasn't supporting them, they were subject to take you out on the hill and give you a good beatin'. If they put a bundle of switches on you porch, you knew what to expect next. You either straighted up and fly right, provide some kind of existence for your family or they take you out and give you a good beatin'. That was their ...that was their contribution to society. If you were a prostitute in the community, and didn't clear yourself up, they put some switches on your porch. That meant the next time, they was gonna use them on your butt.

J: Did they run any people out of town to your knowledge?

HB: Not as I know of. I don't remember 'em ever runnin' anybody out of town. But, they certainly would get straightened up.

J: Were there houses of prostitution in Matewan?

HB: Well, I wudn't..I wudn't...aware of it. I was too small a boy to really know about those things. But, there were interesting rumors that there were.

J: Did you know R. W. Buskirk?

HB: Oh, yeah.

J: Tell me something about him. He's a prominent fellow, but, not a whole lot of people remember him personally.

HB: I don't know just where he came from, but he came to Matewan. And, uh...he was a businessman, a very shrewd businessman. And he begin to but a lot of property on the Kentucky side. Most of the cemetery over there belonged to him. And, he built the Urias Hotel in Matewan. And, he built the saloon on the Kentucky side, and had a bridge running over to it. And at one time, that was one of the biggest businesses was anywhere. That big saloon on the Kentucky side. Big two-story building loaded with liquor. That's where he made most of his money, through that. Bought a lot of property on the Kentucky side. And, he built the Urias Hotel and uh..'course that brought him in a lot of money. Very shrewd fellow. And, then, he developed what they call a carbuncle on his neck and he went to Huntington and then, I think, back to uh... Welch, Bluefield or somewhere but they couldn't...couldn't do anything for him. He finally died from that. Poison from it killed him. It was about that size right on the back of his neck. (size of thumbnail)

J: So he must have got blood poison or something.

HB: Blood poisoning. Back then, you know, they had no antibiotics to take care of things. But, he was a shrewd business man. I remember my daddy saying that...he built first a wooden building there, hotel, you know, it was a wooden building, and it burned down. And, he said then when he built that...he said "I am building this one out of bricks and hell or heaven can't destroy it". He built it out of brick.

J: And, that'd be the Buskirk building.

HB: That was the Buskirk building. That was the old Urias Hotel, was there too. Well, there was several business in that building, Buskirk building. The hotel, the hardware, and the United Mine Workers, I mean the detective, Baldwin-Felts Detectives had a few rooms upstairs.

J: Oh, the...the Baldwin Felts had an office there?

HB: Had an office there. And, they roomed there while they were in Matewan.

J: So they had an office in the Urias Hotel?

HB: Yeah. And, they also uh...stayed at the hotel during the they were in Matewan.

J: This office that they had in the hotel, did they keep it operating all the time or just once in awhile?

HB: I don't know...I don't know whether it was temporary thing or what...what it might have been.

J: Hum. I've never heard that. Do you remember...there was a big fire in downtown Matewan, I think about 1925, do you remember anything about that. I believe the movie house burned down, didn't it?

HB: I believe it was the movie house. The best I can remember, it was a movie house. (tape cuts off) Want me to hold it? (from here on interview conducted with built in microphone on the recorder)

J: No, I'll hold it.

HB: I say the jury was so deeply concerned about the case that they were almost afraid to render a verdict of guilty. And, the day that the jury was to receive the case um...friends of the..of the defendants said there were people walking the streets of Williamson with cigar boxes under their arms. One man said he never saw so many shoe boxes in his life and they were all loaded with guns. And, had it had been that that jury had declared those men guilty, they would have been another massacre probably there in Williamson. My father said he was sure that if things hadn't turned out as they did, Williamson would have been on fire for awhile.

J: Was your father uh...did he have a favorable impression of this lawyer Houston?

HB: Yeah, he did. He thought he was one of the best lawyers he ever heard defend a case. (tape cuts off) Uh...She [Babe Burgraff] ran the saloon on the other side of Matewan there called the Buskirk saloon for awhile. And, and the Chambers boys, they were big, strong physical fellows, and they'd come to the saloon and buy a few drinks and get into fights. And, and she called their daddy and he come over and...he wouldn't say boys, just get out now, go home...he'd just start flailin' with his fists. And, by the time he knocked them down two or three times, they're ready to go home.

J: Now would this be Reece or another Chambers?

HB: No. I forgotten now just what their daddy's name was. But uh...Reece was one of the boys and Thurman Broggs Chambers' one of the other boys.

J: So, this is your Aunt Babe Burgraff that you're talking about that worked there.

HB: Yeah, yeah. And, she'd call and get their daddy to come, you know, and get them out. And, he'd just come in there and start flailin' with his fists. And, they went home, I reckon.

J: That concludes this interview.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection