Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Josephine Hope Interview

BECKY BAILEY: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center, Thursday, June 21, 1990. I'm in the home of Mrs. Hope, she's the sister of Frank Allara. And my first question Mrs. Hope is can I have your whole name, including your maiden name.

Josephine Allara Hope: Okay. Josephine Matoon Allara Hope, (she laughs).

B: And when were you born?

JH: Oh gosh! at Fort Gay, West Virginia, October the 11th, 1908.

B: How many children where there in your family? Was it just you and Mr. Allara?

JH: No, they were six but five lived. The oldest brother was, died but there really six, 'five of us I mean.

B: Okay. Did he die when he was a baby?

JH: Yeah.

B: Okay. Do you know what he died from?

JH: No.

B: Okay. And what were your parents' names?

JH: (Laughs) my mother was Jenny Poole(?), and don't ask me where she was born, they lived over in Kentucky. And I can't think of the name of that town, to save my name. I should rattle off with this thing on now.

B: That's okay, believe me I rattle on it so, okay, what about your father?

JH: Well, I'll have to get the dictionary.

B: Okay. And you were saying Mrs. Hope that father was from Italy, in Sirbo, Italy?

JH: Uh-huh.

B: And it says in your family Bible that he was born in 1863. Did he ever tell you all when he came to this country?

JH: Oh, we use to talk about it, you know, when we can I like to remember my father. But uh...he, my mother was very particular, she wouldn't let him talk Italian to us, which we all wished he had we probably could of learned a little bit. (laughs).

B: Why didn't she want him did she...

JH: Oh, I don't know, she didn't, you know.

B: Okay. What did your father do for living?

JH: He was a mason, he done masonry work, and he built the first uh...needle dam, I don't know where it was even, in the United States or I shouldn't say that because maybe, he built a needle dam, down here at Fort Gay, and uh...the...well not very many made (?) at that time like that.

B: Uh-huh. What is a needle dam so that we can have it on tape?

JH: (Laughs) Well, I don't know if it's something like needles, that raises up like needles, you know, let the water through...

B: When you and your um...brothers and sisters were born, did your mother have a doctor to help her or was it a mid-wife, do you know?

JH: I imagine it was a mid-wife, I never did really uh...hear her say but I imagine, because we all born in Fort Gay, a little town down the road here.

B: Uh-huh. Were you the youngest child?

JH: Uh-huh.

B: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have, how were they spilt?

JH: I had uh...two brothers, and uh...two sisters, should I count the one that died? I didn't even know him he was the oldest one.

B: Okay, in your family where the boys treated different from the girls?

JH: No, we was all treated alike.

B: OKay. What about your your chores did...did the boys have certain chores and the girls had different chores?

JH: Well, my two brothers worked all their lives, I don't know, yes I had chores of my own, I carried in the coal and the kindlin' (laughs) My other sister she helped with all that stuff, but I stayed outside and done most of the work.

B: Uh-huh, okay. Um...how long did you all live in Fort Gay?

JH: Well, let's see, I was trying to think how old I was, I think we came up here when I was about eight, I must of been about four, somethin' like that.

B: Okay. Do you remember anything about World War I, I know you were just a real little girl, when it happened?

JH: I can remember the uh...Fort Gay, I can remember the train goin' through with the uh...solders on it and uh...I have a paper, when the war was uh...when they surrendered...I have that paper, I forgot what year that was though.

B: 1918?

JH: Something like that, I've got that newspaper, (she laughs)

B: Oh that's a treasure.

JH: Yes it is, (laughing)

B: Okay. Do you remember um...the fl....flu epidemic that came after World War I?

JH: I remember about the flu, but not much. I don't remember anybody in the family, you know, being sick they might could of been but, I've never heard mother talk after that I don't think.

B: Uh...huh Okay.

JH: That I can remember.

B: Uh-huh, your mother wasn't an Italian so she didn't cook any, learn any...

JH: Oh yes, all that spaghetti and stuff which I don't care about, (laughing) but I still eat spaghetti, I still don't really like it, you see she use to fix up a bunch of stuff.

B: How did she learn how to cook the Italian food?

JH: I don't know I guess the women back then just learned.

B: UH-huh. Did she ever tell you all how they met, do you know how they met?

JH: Not really. But she lived in Wirt County and he came here to work and that was when he was workin' on the dam and Fort Gay, that they met, I remember that much of it, but that's all. I remember mean her tellin' that's what she'd say.

B: Did she ever talk about her parents, like what her father done for a living or anything?

JH: No, he no I don't know any of 'em, knew any of 'em, only her sisters, she had two sisters well three, lived different places and one especially she was sayin' my sister was grieving herself, ever summer...To stay summer with them (laughing) and that...that one was really her favorite sister.

B: Did you like those visits during the summer?

JH: Oh yeah.

B: What did you do?

JH: Well the first time I had with Uncle Frank, and he moved, they came to Matewan, he uh...he was uh...sawmill man, a lumber man. And they lived over here on Pigeon Creek, now I was young ...not very big, and we come and we had to ride a mule, get off the train down here at Matewan and go up the creek and over the mountain up Pigeon Creek, to where they lived.

B: On a mule...

JH: On...on back of...a mule, my uncle lived, I did another a man it belonged to and my sister was behind him, and we stayed there all summer and its near where Musick's place is over there, there use to be a old wooden house across from the Musick home and uh...that's where we stayed all summer of 'course we was around the saw mill it was farther up the holler...we had a good time playin' in the creek and taking nickels to the store on Saturday store and buy a whole great big bag, full of candy...(laughing)

B: What kind of candy was...

JH: its hard candy or gum drops, (laughing) I can remember that we had a good time.

B: What kind of games did you play when you where a little girl did you play house with dolls or anything like that?

JH: My sister and I, played with dolls all the time.

B: What were you dolls made out of?

JH: Just uh...saw dust I guess, (laughing) just stuffed with something, I don't know, I remember on time we got ready to leave out of Thacker and place we came went to Fort Gay and going to move to Pie, and we packed all of our dolls in a suitcase, I had seven and she had seven, we just put them all in this suitcase, back then they put moved you in a boxcar I guess on the train, and when we finally got there and we was a little late, we'd get our toys sometime, the train got in or whatever it did, and when they unloaded we brought the dolls in too, with us and it had rained on 'em and they had all melted...

B: Aw...

JH: All the paper, it was a sight I tell you, we cried and carried on, ( Bailey and Hope laugh).

B: What do you remember about riding on the train when you were a little girl?

JH: Well, they wudn't so new uh...the train was right there in front of us for years, we'd ride them to Kenova, my...mother had a friend down there that we go see. Just like it is today, I mean like it was back, of course back then we had...had diners and Pullmans and all that. Which is nice when you're going some place.

B: Did you ever eat in one of the dining cars...

JH: Oh yes...

B: What was it like?

JH: After I got old, later, you know, I love to eat on the diner on the train.

B: Would they not take the children on the dining car or...

JH: Not then, because they uh...they wasn't to far from where we lived to Logan, you know.

B: Okay.

JH: But we see them and go wave, we lived kinda close to the railroad track and we'd just wave sometimes stand over near the track just to see the train go bye. That was somethin'

B: When did you start school when you were a little girl, how old were you, do you remember?

JH: I think I was seven, because I was real little, that's when we was in Fort Gay.

B: Uh-huh.

JH: I don't remember too, much. Then we came up here that was about a year, and I used to walk from down Thacker to Matewan.

B: Uh-huh.

JH: Two...I think it was two and half mile, rain or sleet nothin' stop us then,(laughing) mother would see that we had to get to school, we walked to school...

B: Uh-huh.

JH: and then walked back in the evening.

B: How long did school last, I mean...

JH: From 9 'til 4 which they oughta do now, (both laughing). But uh...when we were in high school we was in I don't know what grade, I believe about the seventh, she about two years ahead of me, but, they was...I had to wait in the evening down here at the railroad track and uh...so they (siblings) got permission from the board to, there was a school building that sit right up here, one room school building and uh...school was out we'd get out at three-thirty, and I had to wait 'til they came from Matewan, pick me up so I wouldn't walk up the railroad tracks, so they got permission that I could go to Matewan Grade, we had to pay a tuition that wanted very much, so that wasn't so bad... So, I got to go to Matewan School.

B: What kind of school books did they have for children back then, do you remember any of your school books?

JH: Jones' Reader was one and I got it, (laughing) and uh...I don't know whether they had them McGuffy's then or not I don't believe, I believe that was for me, Megruffies Reading Books. I remember my mother talkin' about it, that's one book, child could later on you know.

B: Do you remember the names of any of your teachers?

JH: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that I don't even remember, let's see uh...third grade teacher, uh...I can't remember those.

B: Was they mostly men or women?

JH: No, they were women, I never thought about who I went to school with...I mean the scho...school teacher and I never even thought about it.

B: You went to school from 9 'til 4 so did you all get recess and lunch?

JH: Yeah, the lunch.

B: What was your schedule like did you get morning recess or did you...

JH: You get a fifteen period in the mornin' and hour at noon and fifteen minutes in the afternoon. Of 'course we didn't have buses or anything we got out at four o'clock. You see.

B: When um...you had your lunch period did you go home for lunch or did you pack your lunch.

JH: We packed our lunch

B: What kind of lunches did ya'll pack

JH: Oh no mother always fixed us something good sandwiches and we'd take milk and something to drink.

B: Where was the school down in Matewan where you went?

JH: When I went to school it was the one they tore down, then they had one across the street, that I went to it was tore down too...I went to uh...that one, even later on we had to help...like me and you helped paint the upper part of it. It was Mrs. Hopkins, I believe it was, I believe she, I believe she was the principal, she might of been the principal she might of been the teacher. I better not say anything about that cause I'm not sure.

B: I know she was a principal later on...

JH: I taught her.

B: You did, were you a teacher, we did you tart...started teaching school?

JH: (unintelligible sounds like she thinking out loud) I start teachin' in 1928, and I taught on...nine hours, I start teachin' on...nine hours.

B: When did you graduate from high school?

JH: Nineteen and twenty..twenty-six, twenty-seven, what I tell you there?

B: You started teaching in nineteen and twenty-eight.

JH: Yeah, uh-huh.

B: Was there a grade that you taught or did you teach a specific grade?

JH: I had uh...yes, I had uh...I believe when I first started out it was the fourth grade, I taught the fourth grade all the time uh...I didn't teach all the time in Matewan like I really uh...let's see where did I start teaching, I taught I believe I taught one year at Thacker and then I moved to North Matewan the next year, the I got into Matewan School.

B: Were you a good teacher?

JH: I thought I was, the kids thought I was. (she laughs)

B: Do you remember any of your students?

JH: Uh-huh...quite a few of 'em some of are here in town, Bill Roberson, he said if I had listened to you when you was teaching us math, said I would know how to measure a peice of lumber today. He always says that to me. Few of 'em still around.

B: Did you ever teach uh...with Stella Presley?

JH: No.

B: Okay. I interviewed her last summer...

JH: You did. I bet her's was an interesting thing to listen too.

B: She was really interesting.

JH: Oh yes.

B: When did you get married?

JH: I don't know.(laughing) I told you I wasn't good with dates, didn't I? Let's see if I got that in here, I think I have, I can't remember my sons uh...1930, I was married at Wolf Creek that's over in Kentucky, that's in Inez Kentucky. I'm glad I had a little information.(laughing)

B: When you got married did your parents go with you when you got married?

JH: No, I eloped.

B: You eloped?

JH: Yeah.(she laughs)

B: Does that mean that your parents didn't want you to get married?

JH: Oh, I went with my husband seven years before I married him (she laughs) aw...I think they knew was going to get married, but I didn't know we was going to get married that day either.

B: How...Why didn't you know?

JH: We talked about it and all that stuff, you know, after church on Sunday we got in the car and started down the road (Bailey and Hope are laughing) married in Goody Kentucky oh dear...Um...I don't even have my marriage license I'd don't know where I've moved so many times when we were married.

B: What was your husband name?

JH: Terry, Terrance Winford if you want the real name.

B: You know, was this Mr. Hope?

JH: Uh?

B: Was his last name Hope?

JH: Hope, yeah.

B: Okay. You said you dated for seven years what kind of dates did you all go on?

JH: Oh, good ones, good ones. Wudn't much to do back in them times, we've been havin' movie, we used to drive to Williamson, we used to go to dances, and you know. What little kids would do, swimming, back then you use to go picnicking, On picnics with his mother and daddy, went...over to Gilbert that was the big thing back then you know, back then picnic and things, you know on Sunday.

B: When you all went to movies did you all go in groups or were you chaperoned?

JH: Uh...no.

B: Was he older than you?

JH: Just a year.

B: Okay. Was he the only boy you ever dated?

JH: Really, I guess he was, I'd use to sneak around when I was going with him?

B: You did?

JH: Yeah, ain't that awful to tell that one and it on tape, too. (laughing) He was my really first love.

B: How did you all meet?

JH: School.

B: Now, did his family have the department store at that time?

JH: Well, they had the first uh...uh...we was going together then, and I don't know the year, so don't ask me. They first started out with a music store, and then they had, then they opened up what back then they called the five and ten cent store...they moved the music...music they sold uh...radios and pianos and uh...records, they had a record shop and all that stuff..then after so long, I don't know how long but, they put in what you called, they called it Hope's Department Store and they put in clothing and stuff like that.

B: Do you remember what building that was back then?

JH: Yeah, it was Buskirk building, the banks covered that one so that the people that took over the Buskirk building, put that little roofing like thing across the front...And uh...I guess the name is still behind that. They took in two of those big buildings, one where the flower pot is and one next two it. They knocked out the partition...and made a one big uh...place.

B: Okay. When you all went to the movies do you remember any of the movies that you liked?

JH: We saw all of the good ones, back then, "Gone with the Wind", I can't remember all all of John Wayne's pictures that came out back in the olden days. (she laughs)

B: Did you like Clark Gable?

JH: Yeah.

B: Okay. Some...

JH: I...

B: Oh, I'm....go ahead.

JH: I paid to go see "Gone with the Wind" I don't know how many times, even on T.V. now, so many of them are.

B: Somebody told us that uh...big bands use to come through the area.

JH: Yes, they did, Glen Varney was here you know. And uh..we had a big time that night.

B: uh...huh. Where did they play?

JH: In the gym, the gym is still up there, it's in the last building, where the uh...other school building was behind it, it wasn't finished until the next year after I graduated, But uh..they built a stage up, on the uh...basketball floor and he didn't like it very well, my lands the place was crowded and jammed and uh...everybody had a good time.

B: What kind of dances did you all dance back then?

JH: Well, sometime it was Waltz and alot of people began to Jitterbug and I couldn't...didn't jitterbug very good, but I could foxtrot and waltzes.

B: When you were young did you, uh...I notice your hair is short now, did you wear your hair short when you were young?

JH: Yeah...Mostly, mostly all the time. Uh-huh.

B: Was that uh...acceptable? What was acceptable versus unacceptable behavior, I notice you smoke now where you allowed to smoke when you were young?

JH: Oh no, I didn't smoke until after I was married, my brother, brother Frank...he...he was real strict on me (Hope laughs) because I'm the only one that smokes in the family and I...I'm sorry to say that, but.

B: So he was strict on you?

JH: Oh he was.

B: What kind of things did he...was he strict about?

JH: Well, smokin' for one thing, and I had to act real nice when I was out dancing or something and I couldn't carry it in, he was strict on us, we had to be home at certain time, see my father was killed when I was maybe ten years old by lightening, and uh...so Frank, my oldest brother never was home too much, but Frank always, always stayed with, well, we lived with him. And uh...He was always thought good to me, and he was good to all..all 'em.

B: Uh-huh. We've heard uh...through the years that Halloween was a big prank night for the young people did you ever get involved in any of that?

JH: They wouldn't let me out back then I mean for Halloween, they use to do alot of silly things, like take their outside privy and put it up in a tree (laughing) or somewhere, but I never was in on...any of that. But they use to do alot of things.

B: Uh...my colleague interviewed Venchie Morrell, last summer, he said the kids use to have curfew in town, do you remember that?

JH: Nine o'clock. I had a curfew up there at home and Terry was there and uh...mother wanted to go bed, first we'd play the victrola law and stuff like that. We heard a shoe hit the floor we knew it was time (laughing) to uh..to go 'course we could, never had any dates hardly during school but uh...It was usually just on the weekend.

B: Now, did he have to work in the family business when he was in school?

JH: Uh-huh. They had a poolroom too, before uh...put what they called the department store back and he worked in the poolroom alot and when he was just young you know, and he was a good pool player, too. (she laughs).

B: Some of the people that uh...that we're interested in knowing about down at the Center are like R.W. Buskirk, did you remember did you ever see him.

JH: You mean the Senior?

B: Senior.

JH: No, I don't, I remember her but I mean Mrs. Buskirk, I believed he died before I got around to that.

B: They say that Mrs. Bus...

JH: Now...

B: I'm sorry.

JH: Hope could probably tell you know, my mother-in-law could tell if she was livin' could tell you alots of things. (she laughs)

B: I heard that Mrs. Buskirk was kind of a forceful lady to that she really took charge, was that kind of person she was?

JH: She was nice, she,

B: Okay.

JH: I liked her and her and she had uh... two daughters... and a son. I liked the youngest daughter the best, she always like to play bridge with us.

JH: She always liked to play bridge with us. We always, I did alot of thinkin' after we did after we got married.

B: Uh...huh. Where did you all live after you got married?

JH: When to...I went housekeeping during the week, what we use to call the lower part of town. Down that way, you know where the railroad crossing is, well there use to be a row of houses right over here and I went to house keeping at that house.

B: Uh...huh Did you all live by yourselves or uh...?

JH: Uh-huh.

B: Did you all rent it or ?

JH: Rented it uh-huh.

B: Okay.

JH: I didn't stay there long though, I think I've lived in every house in Matewan. (Both laughing) I use to move to clean house. (Both laughs)

B: So you didn't like to clean house then?

JH: Oh, I didn't mind house work.

B: Okay. Did you all have any children?

JH: Had one. Loyd, one son.

B: Did you have trouble with his birth or was that a decision?

JH: Well, I had trouble having him,(laughing) I was married fifteen years before I had him. I give up.

B: Now, did your husband stay in the family business?

JH: Yes, uh..huh.

B: Okay, how big was his family, how many people were?

JH: They...they was uh...seven boys in that family.

B: Was he the youngest or the oldest?

JH: Uh...he was about the third I think and he...all boys. There is just one livin' now, and I took him and raised him and uh...course he got married and left.

B: uh...huh. Do you know where your husband's family had come from?

JH: Now, Mr. Hope was from Ohio, and I don't know uh...and Mrs. Hope I think is from around here around I don't know, somewhere over on Pigeon someplace. I know that they are from around here because alot of her, I don't know 'em, but alot of her people, I did go with her and drive her around alot, to...go see certain ones you know. We had a good time, she and I got along pretty good.

B: Uh...hun. Okay. We've read uh...newspaper stories that your brother was in town in the day of the Matewan Massacre do you remember any of that? What do you remember about that?

JH: All..all I remember uh...down at the uh...he...he made all of, got us together down at the school and we started about, around, going home they told us we had to get up the road, everybody get home so uh...he, the rest of us, there was a bunch more, all of the Keesee went to school down here we all got together and went up, walkin' up the railroad tracks, and hurried and I mean runnin' but I didn't really I was uh...just a little but uh...I guess I was just about eight years old, I, something like that. But anyhow uh...he went back for somethin' I don't know what, and we went on and that's all I can remember now, seems like I don't know where I just heard of it, but I heard the shot, now we was out of here before the train came or anything. I do know that he went back.

B: Uh-huh. And this was your brother.

JH: I got all those papers too. About the Baldwin and Felts and uh...Hatfield and McCoy.

B: Oh, my.

JH: Mrs. Hope gave those to me before she died and all those papers she'd been saving.

B: uh...huh. Okay. Do you remember uh...Mayor Testerman?

JH: I remember his wife and him too. How come me to remember things? Going back to my Uncle Frank, they lived in Matewan in the uh...we used to call it the Hatfield Building, but uh...Danny Moore I believe owns it, what they're remodeling down there now? They lived in the apartment on the first floor and we use to go to Testerman's, she would...on maybe Saturday's we'd go down town you know and she was very strict but I can remember going into jewelry store with her? That's what they had you know and I remember her, and she was real pretty...and he was...was uh...seem like to be a little on the fat side, I mean heavy side, but I remember a little bit about them about that.

B: We've heard that she was pretty but do...was she nice,

JH: oh yeah.

B: or what do you remember about her?

JH: I got a picture of her on the paper. I think she was real nice, I think it seemed like to me that Aunt (unintelligible).. knew her real..

B: What about Sid Hatfield we've heard all kinds of stories about him, some people liked him some people didn't?

JH: I...I didn't really know him, I knew he was a state policemen, but uh...other than that I couldn't tell you more.

B: Okay.

JH: I got a picture of him in the paper too.

B: We were tryin' to figure out because in some pictures he looks tall and other pictures he looks short?

JH: He was thin, he was tall and thin, nice lookin' I remember that abou...about him. He was tall, nice lookin'.

B: Do you remember you would've of been awful little to have heard anything but do you remember people sayin' anything about when he married?

JH: Well, I've heard, just what you hear, you know, I wished I could say, but I just heard it you know, He had been lovers with her you know, but I...I couldn't say.

B: Uh-huh, Okay. We've also been reading up...up on when Sid Hatfield got killed there was a big funeral.

JH: I...think now uh...I don't remember that...Well...see I was in Matewan when I was little because see 'uh my aunt lived in two places Matewan and uh...my husband use to bring her milk, 'course I knew he was Terry Hope, but I didn't, I was little then. Use to play and cut out paper dolls. (laughs)

B: So did he de..deliver milk, to people?

JH: I think Mrs. Hope sold milk back then. 'Cause she...came and deliver milk to my aunt.

B: Okay. What about uh...Sallie and Ed Chambers, do yo remember anything about them?

JH: I should but I...I...uh..uh...I was too little I can't...I known of 'em, you know, 'cause uh...Boots, you know, and I...we used to go together back then, that was before I met Terry, I mean we just, you know, we were young

B: Puppy love.

JH: and yeah, yeah, and that's his brothers you know, And But I can't uh...my sister went with the oldest brother of that Chamber outfit, but we were livin' in Fort Gay part of the... most of the time when they were comin' up 'cause Boots was uh...I guess he was in school.

B: What, what kind of family um...where they, you say your sister dated the older brother what kind of boy you know was he?

JH: Well, they all seemed to be nice boys, and did well, all that family is nice, all the Chamber's was, sisters, they had one sister, and I don't know how many brothers. Lena had but uh...I thought of so many things, I can remember the Blue Goose.

B: You do?

JH: It was right, right there across the river here, uh...over where Edith I mean uh...Bob McCoy lives there...well it was just up this way, the Blue Goose, and they (there) were swinging like bridge right here, down across the river I can remember that... And uh...I never did see a boat come up the river...But, there used to be boats that came up on the river, but I never really did see one. They called it the Blue Goose and they uh...used to bring the liquor up on the boats.

B: What do you remember about the Blue Goose?

JH: I just remember, I knew it was there but we always knew it wudn't a place that you should be around...and then we, you crossed part of the bridge, walked across that bridge, we didn't go way across, (laughing) we...we stayed on this side, but I remember walking across the bridge. It's a wonder somebody don't have a picture of that bridge.

B: There is one we've seen one?

JH: Have ya.

B: Uh-huh, Venchie Morrell, identified it.

JH: Oh, I bet...bet he would have, uh-huh.

B: Some of the uh..we're interested in uh...some of the night life in Matewan and uh...one for the people we're asking questions about is Aunt Carrie, do you remember?

JH: Who?

B: Aunt Carrie, she was a uh...

JH: Colored person...

B: uh-huh

JH: Lordy yeah.

B: What do you remember about her?

JH: Well, I used to uh...when I was young, you never would go down where she lived, you know...I liked her, I use to go down there a lot, I shouldn't tell what for but uh...not to drink or anything but uh...she was she was a good old colored...She use to cook super, maybe I could get her to fry chicken for a weekend if I was going to have company, she fried chicken for me alots of times.

B: Did you ever have to uh...when you said you didn't want to say what you had to go down there for, did you like have to go down there and make sure somebody got home okay?

JH: Yes.

B: Okay. I've heard. I heard of I've talked to a lot of ladies, they said they go down on payday after a while to collect their fathers and such.

JH: I think no, it's my brothers my...my in-laws.

B: Uh-huh. Okay, How about, this is another lady, um..Meg or Mag Daniels?

JH: Meggy Daniels, yeah, I remember her and where she lived, but uh...besides family I don't know how many was over there but, uh...you know the station was here, before they tore it down, but they should of never tore it down, and she lived over here in a two story building, near where that uh... where church has uh...I think they store things in that big building...and her house used to be right back through that on the lower side...and uh...she was a character. (laughing) I don't want to say anything about the other.

B: Well, uh...

JH: I couldn't swear to any of that but...

B: Okay.

JH: But Carrie was alright.

B: You saying off tape that...that Aunt Carrie had a broken hip, that her hip, kinda stuck out. .

JH: Uh-huh. She couldn't walk very, too good you know.

B: One of the ah stories that we heard about Meg Daniels was that she was a read headed women, did she have red hair?

JH: Yes, she did...uh nice lookin', all I can remember about her, I remember, I don't remember where alot of the children of people, young kids was hers or not, you know.

B: Okay, you um...you mentioned something off tape something about a car, did you drive, did you know how to drive?

JH: Back then, I've been driving a long time.

B: How did you learn how to drive?

JH: Sittin' right close to Terry(laughs) and being and he'd take me over on Pigeon Creek out in the bottom and we just go around and around, I guess that's the way.

B: What kind of car did he have?

JH: Well, he had a little Ford, I don't know but it was a Ford, then he had a little red Nash which I liked. The top came out, folded down you know and from then on I don't know, but.

B: Did many women drive, back then when you were first learning or?

JH: Oh yeah, quite a few, yes.

B: I was asking it, because the first time my grandmother was seen in a car her father spanked her she was fourteen, and that was 1944 (laughs) and he spanked her for being seen in a car. And I was wondering if that was like that around here?

JH: Not us, you didn't see many, I don't remember seeing many women driving though, maybe after I started driving, their would of been more.

B: Okay. Alright um...you got married after the the Great Depression started what do you remember about the Great Depression, did it effect life here in Matewan much.

JH: I don't believe, I think everybody back then had a you know, a hard time.

B: Uh-huh, we heard one story that the uh...Matewan National Bank issued it's own money that people, where money was scarce they had money printed up.

JH: Well that might be, now I wouldn't know anything like that.

B: Okay. Something you were telling me when uh...when we first started talking was that you went to college for a semester after you got married, would you tell me that story? About how long had you been married, before you went off to school. (laughs)

JH: Maybe two years, I didn't like it so I don't like to talk about it.

B: Oh. Okay. Well I'll just ask one more question about it if you don't mind,

JH: I don't care..

B: what had made you decide to go to school after being married?

JH: I was just trying to get a standard form, back then ,you know, if you had a standard form, which I did get uh...you could have it renewed, and just keep teachin' they had it renewed for three years, the last certificate back then, but back in the olden days.

B: So it was like a teachers' certificate.

JH: Yeah, uh-huh.

B: How long did you teach school?

JH: Fifteen years.

B: Until your son was born or uh..

JH: Yeah. Fifteen years

B: Okay. What do you remember about World War II, did your husband fight durin' World War II?

JH: No un-hun, it was uh...there was...there wasn't any of my immediate family in the service then back then.

B: Okay. Alright. How has...has Matewan changed over the years like when you were a little girl was the road paved,

JH: No.

B: paved through town?

JH: No, un-hun.

B: What did it look like?

JH: a mud hole, mainstreet you had ruts in 'em even to Williamson the roads were, when they uh...finally, I mean, made a road to Williamson it was uh...gravel, but ruts, all winter it was bad, as bad as they are now.(laughs)

B: It's hard to believe.

JH: Well, I tell you I went to Thacker, up into uh...Phelps this morning and uh...'course they patched a little bit but those roads are terrible, to be ah...forty-nine of the roads are terrible everywhere.

B: How long did uh...your husband's family have the department store do you remember when it closed?

JH: Well we closed really, Hope's Department store we close out...I think it was '75 oh, see you gettin' back to dates on me, let's see, when was the flood here '77? '77, I guess we stayed in after the flood, we stayed in there maybe five years or maybe four year after the flood and it was seventy-five years. From the time they opened and uh...then I worked in uh...when I was going to school, Mr. Hope used to hiring me on holidays and on weekends and uh...then course I worked at the store.

B: What did you do when you worked for him when you were in school?

JH: I was uh...a clerk and did everythang.

B: How much did he pay you?

JH: Well he paid me more than extra, than the other extras,(Bailey laughs) I don't remember how much he paid me back then, I know, I know Terry used to laugh and say daddy must like you cause he paid you...you more than he pays the other girls. (Bailey laughs) I told him I worked harder, I was tryin' to think, I don't remember what year it was we moved and you know where the bank is you know that building over they took uh...Uh...uh I don't know when we moved from down in this part of town across the street, that side of the street had never been in the water and we'd been in the flood down here about five or six times, down in the Buskirk building there and the last time and that's when they decided to uh...move I don't believe I don't know if Mr. Hope was still living or not, I can't remember, I mean with me with some that, but anyway uh...that's how come us to move across to the other building. We bought the building and it was in the biggest flood we ever had, it was almost to the ceiling in that building, I've been through a lot of 'em.

B: We've heard that the...the flood in in '57 was a pretty serious flood.

JH: It was half way up in those store buildings in the Buskirk I've got pictures of that, uh...I know it was up above the handles on the doors.

B: Uh-huh. Okay, what do you think that has changed the most about Matewan in the years you lived here?

JH: Seem like we've just lost so many people, so many places tore down and uh...they killed me when they tore the school building down...and uh...and the other one needs to be tore down and it, you know...places that just gone down. But so many people have moved.

B: Would you say it was mostly because of the flood.

JH: I think so , you know, where they lived the waters was there all time, and uh...we've lost a lot of people.

B: Uh...huh. Okay.This is kind of an odd question to end up with but I wanted to go back to something um...where you all treated any different because your father was Italian because the history books say that Italians we're not treated as well as other whites in the early years in the coal fields.

JH: Well, I don't know, I remember one time we had a basketball game in the litte cracker box and uh...a good religious lady here took her stick and hit on the floor and hollered at my brother, won't you go back were you came from, well we're not Italians we were borned in (laughs) I would be proud of it if I was, now nobody ever said, ever bother us, uh...say anything like.

B: Okay.

JH: See my father was killed uh...I was ten or something like that.

B: Uh-huh. Do you remember him did he speak with an accent?

JH: He was good-lookin' and uh...I can remember him, I use to get so mad at him because he'd call my sister beauty of the valley she always had such long hair and curls, and he called me a monkey. (laughs) Because I was the tomboy and but he was good, he was away from home alot though. In his work, you know, he was killed in Mount Hope, they were building, opening mines there and he was building a store.

B: What kind of relationship did he...he and your mother have, that's one of the things we're interested in seeing how...

JH: There were very much in love.

B: Uh...huh. Were they affectionate to each other in front ya'll...

JH: Yeah, lovely dovey. Yeah I never heard them quarrel or anything, if they did they did it after we...

B: I mean would he put his arm around her or uh...

JH: They went places, lots of places, I can remember her tell us we have to be good while they was gone maybe for a day or night, both of 'em my mother was good-lookin' to, so.

B: Well thank you for talking to me it wasn't as bad as you thought it would be.

JH: Not bad I can't tell you, can't remember a whole lot of things you can think of, but uh...

Matewan Oral History Project Collection