Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Paul Lively Interview

the last time. Um...may I have your permission to record this interview?

PAUL LIVELY: Yes. If you can figure out how to do it.

B: Okay. Okay. Can I have, Mr. Lively, can I have your full name and when and where you were born?

PL: Paul James Lively.

B: Yes, sir.

PL: Mount Hope, West Virginia. March, nineteen, 1933.

B: Okay. And what were you parents names?

PL: My father's name was Charlie Everett Lively.

B: Yes, sir.

PL: And my mother maiden name was Icie Belle I,C,Y. I'm sorry, I,C,I,E. Belle Goff.

B: Okay. And could you spell that last name for me?

PL: G,O,F,F.

B: Okay. And where were they from originally?

PL: Uh...Kanawha County, Charleston area.

B: Okay. Um...do you know when they were married?

PL: They married...(wife speaks in background) Around uh...nineteen, Let's see, second day of July, 1911.

B: Okay. And, were you their youngest child?

PL: Right.

B: Okay. How many children did they have?

PL: I'm the youngest of nine.

B: That's nine children, Okay. Um...what was your father's professional calling? I mean, what...what did...do you know what he did for a living?

PL: Yep. He was a, well, early in life, he was a detective with the Baldwin Felts Detective agency, out of Bluefield.

B: And, do you know how he came to be involved in that organization? Did he ever say?

PL: Well, not, not exactly, it was one of those things he wanted to do.

B: Okay. I was wondering because some of the, we...we know that some of the men that worked for that agency had been involved in police work. They had been deputy sheriff's or, you know, they had been involved in police work, and uh...people had said before, that a lot of the people that were had gone to work for that agency were involved in, or they were interested in police type work and that's why they had gone to work for the Baldwin Felts.

PL: No, he uh...he entered it, he was rather young when he entered the thing, uh...I know he had uh...as a real young man, he worked in the coal mines for a little while and one of the things is, he just didn't like the, the push for unionization. He thought it was a communist type doing which I think uh...we found out that it was being organized somewhat by the Reds. He didn't like it. These idea's of unions, I think that' may be one of the things that motivated him to go with something like Baldwin Felts.

B: Un-hun. Sort of a patriotic feeling, then, perhaps.

PL; From his stand point, yeah.

B: Okay. alright um...I've...I've read in some history books that your father had been involved um...with, I don't know if it was the Baldwin Felts Agents, particularly, or another agency like that in Colorado, around 1912. Do you know anything about that?

PL: Yeah...Only that uh...he was, uh...he worked on an assignment in Colorado. It was the same kind of thing that was goin' on in Matewan. Union, you know, where the miners were unionizin' and the men that didn't want them to and he was sent out there to , on the same aspect that he was sent to Matewan, and he worked undercover with the union, keep notes, let management know what the union was doin'.

B: Un-hun. Did your mother and...and any of their family travel with him out there? Do you know?

PL: Uh...yeah. I know my mother had talked about having lived in Colorado but, you know, one time.

B: Did she ever say anything about what it was like?

PL: The place or the work?

B: The...uh...the...the work or or the place or, any details about their life out there?

PL: No, I, the only thing I ever heard her say about Colorado was about the weather.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...how did your father come to uh...to to work in this part of West Virginia? Do...do you know? Did they ever talk about it?

PL: Well they said they were both matives of West Virginia, some (of the family) was from...and as far as comin' to Matewan, that's, that's where the Baldwin Felts sent them. It was an assignment for him.

B: Okay, Well, as you probably know, the sympathetic to the miners side of the story has it that your father was sent in undercover. Do you now if that was true?

PL: Yeah.

B: That...that he was...he was sent in to not reveal that he was with the Baldwin Felts Agency.

PL: That's true. That's the nature of an undercover agent. You don't find out much about the other side if they know who you are.

B: That's true. (laughter) Okay. What did your mother um...or or your father ever tell you about uh...their experiences in Matewan?

PL: Oh, most of what I've ever heard about Matewan from them revolved around the shoot out. Course I've, always heard about them happenin' in the restaurant and uh...about it being a hangout for the uh...Baldwin Felts, not Baldwin Felts, that would've been a hangout for the union folks, and uh...that's where he got most of his information was there talkin' to the folks that come in there they had uh...there was little unofficial union meetings there in the coffee shop and he found out what the union was doin' that way, then reported back to the Baldwin Felts.

B: Do you know how he managed to send those reports back secretly? Did he write in a code or how did he get them back the...the agency?

PL: They was just letters put in the U.S. Mail. Now he...he didn't address them the Baldwin Felts, they were uh...I don't remember them sayin' exactly who they were addressed to, but they were addressed to a fictitious name. And uh...he signed it with a fictitious name also, you didn't drop somethin' in the mail that said to the Baldwin Felts Detective Agency...They was, and I'm just using this as an example cause I don't remember the name, it might have been to Lula Belle Parsons at a post office box at Bluefield. But, then they knew to check that post office box.

B: Un-hun. Did your mother know about your father's activities, I mean, how did she help in running the restaurant?

PL: Yes, she knew about his activities. How could she help in run the restaurant? What ever people do in restaurant, you know, waitin' on customers. Made coffee. Cuttin' up pie. Two of them were there that I know of.

B: Un-hun. Okay. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you questions about some of the people here in town and I will just say their name or whatever and if you would like to comment on...on what your father or your mother thought of them, um...

PL: It won't be many, now.

B: Okay. Uh...what did your father think of Mayor Testerman? Because we've...we've heard that the stories have it that Mayor Testerman really wasn't seeking the shootout. He was more of a peaceful element on that side. Did you father ever talk about him?

PL: Oh, the only indication that I ever, got anything about him was he was somewhat of a wimp.

B: Un-hun. Okay. What about his wife Jessie?

PL: Well, now, the stories I've heard about Jessie, (laughter) there's lots of them. No, the stories that I heard about Jessie was she was not a...a very savory character but uh...Testerman had rescued her from a house of ill-repute. And uh...brought her to Matewan that uh...even when she was married to Testerman, she was carryin' on an affair with uh...with Sid and uh...my side of the family's convinced that Sid shot Testerman so he could get Jessie. And of course, if you followed the newspaper accounts, old Jessie uh...seemed to like violence, I guess 'cause, she, ended up with another cop. (laughing)

B: Un-hun. Well, that's true. Um....I've read something, I think was from, when you talk with uh...Lon Savage that Testerman uh...had beaten Jessie shortly before the shootout occurred and that your father knew something about that?

PL: Yeah, they was, she had uh...she had, according, to my father and information he got, she uh...sent a note that uh... that Testerman had been workin' her over and she needed help and of course, uh...I think according to my father, Sid and uh... Jessie had been seen takin' romantic walks along the river while she was still married to Testerman.

B: Un-hun. Okay. What about some of the um...the..the men that were involved in the union. Did your father ever mention Charlie Kiser? And your family would you remember that name?

PL: The name is familiar, but I can't tell you anything about it.

B: Okay. What about this..this man may have actually come to the area after your father was gone. His name was John Collins.

PL: Doesn't ring a bell.

B: Okay. When your father, your father, basically, broke his cover at the time of the trial. Is that correct?

PL: That is right.

B: Okay and uh...how did that come about? I mean, that was, the agency lost an important undercover agent by doing that, do you know how the decision was made for him to come out from under cover?

PL: Oh yes. Uh...one of the biggest assignment there in Matewan was to, afterwards following the uh...the Matewan Massacre, as they call it, and if you recall, there were quite a few people from the Baldwin Felts Detective Agency got shot there, including two brothers that owned the place. (Agency) They were two Felts boys. Albert and Lee. And one, his big mission after that was to find out for sure who was responsible for the killing of uh...the Baldwin Felts Agents and the murder of the two Felts boy and bring to trial and get them convicted, and of course, to get them convicted, he had to testify. And, and during his testimony, against Sid Hatfield, why he blew his cover.

B: Right. Did he ever talk about that day in trial? I mean, I assume that they didn't know that he had, that anyone had known anything until he arrived in court. Is that true?

PL: Yeah. That is true, uh...nobody knew that he was an undercover agent until, he's in the courthouse testifying against Sid Hatfield.

B: What did he tell you about that day when he testified? Did he ever talk about it?

PL: Oh, yeah, uh...he said he uh...went in and testified and was supposed to question then, one of the first questions they ask you is who you are and what your occupation is and he answered his occupation was a Baldwin Felts Detective Agent, an undercover agent for the Baldwin Felts Detectives. He said that the roof on the court house about exploded cause nobody knew who he was. And then, it was a damn near an explosion from the...from the surprise of everybody (laughing). And of course, my mother was in Matewan, as he was testifyin'. They knew they would have to get out of town as soon as it...as that was over. So she was there packing and caught a train out of Matewan that same day. They locked up the restaurant and, well got the hell out of town. (laughing)

B: How...how was she, I assume that he was fairly well liked, then, by the people in town up until that time.

PL: Yeah. To my understanding.

B: Did...well did they ever talk about the people in town that they probably liked? I mean who, did they ever talk about, perhaps, some of the friends that they had made in town?

PL: No, uh...the, I think uh...to my understanding you know, Charlie's circle of friends in the involvement were the union leaders and of course, mother was busy makin' family, and helpin' out in the restaurant, she, women didn't socialize much in those days. You know, their place was in the bedroom and kitchen.

B: Un-hun. Were your...were your parents church goers? Did they attend...

PL: Oh, yeah.

B: Church here in town?

PL: Well, they was church goer's I...I assume that they went there.

B: What was their their...religious affiliation?

PL: Baptist.

B: Baptist. Okay. Where...where did your father go after he left um...the Matewan area after the trial, because I know, obviously he surfaced in Welch again, a year later, but where did he go for that year in between?

PL: Stayed up in Welch.

B: Pardon?

PL: In that...in the Welch, or whatever county that is uh...

B: In McDowell County?

PL: McDowell County. See, McDowell County was a, in those days, was...was heavy, anti-union, as opposed to Mingo County which was union and you know, the sheriffs and the law enforcements and the folks in McDowell County was supporters of the Baldwin Felts team and supporters of the mine managment [sic] so, that's where he went following the trial of Sid Hatfield and he was safe there.

B: Un-hun. Did he work while he was there, I mean, what...what did he do? Do you know?

PL: Well, he was still, he was still in the employee of the Baldwin Felts and...and worked in the mines too.

B: Un-hun,. He actually worked in the mines over there?

PL: Yeah.

B: Okay. Um...what did your father ever uh...say about the Felts brothers um...did he...did he know them personally?

PL: Oh yes. He considered the Felts brothers not only to be his employee but uh...his good friends and uh...of course, they're family members that uh...he named after the Felts. I mean, my oldest brother carried a middle name of Lee which was supposed to been after Lee Felts uh...I got another brother who's full name is Thomas Albert, named after both Tom and Albert Felts. uh...He considered Lee Felts, I guess, he said like a brother, more a brother than a boss.

B: What did um...did he talk about how the uh...the Felts brothers ran their agency, I mean, did...did they also feel that the push for unionization was, somehow, communist involved, is...is that where he got some of his beliefs about that?

PL: Now, I don't know if that was the Agency's thing on it or not or if it was just business, but I know that...that was his firm belief.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...what do you know about what happened in...in August of '21 at at Welch. Did your father ever talk about that?

PL: August, 1921?

B: When...when Sid and Ed were...were killed?

PL: Ok, I'm just thinking on the massacre.

B: Pardon?

PL: Yeah, the version that I always heard was that the, that the Baldwin Felts, well, at least I have to do some back up. The miners, as everybody knew, had gone on strike. And was still in the company houses. Course, in a company house was part of the compensation for workin' for the coal mine and of course coal miners and coal operators decided they are not workin', they don't deserve the compensation. But we've got to have the houses for anybody else that they hired to work so they were being evicted. Baldwin Felts were called in to carry out the evictions. And as I understand, too, that they had been deputizin' deputy sheriffs somewhere, but anyway, they would come in to evict, as I understand, the evictions went smoothly, there were no problems with the evictions, everything was nice and peaceful here and that. And uh...the Baldwin Felts Detectives come back, had gone to the hotel and cleaned up and had their lunch and had broken down, their weapons, and had packed them away in their suitcases. And my understanding is, there was only three or four of them that had handguns that kept, all the rest of them had carried rifles, they had been broken down and put in their suitcases. Uh...and of course, they weren't expecting any problems. But Sid and..and the townspeople had planned a shootout on...on the railroad platform and information that I had from Charlie that...was that it was planned and that uh...the signal to start was supposed to be that Sid was gonna, Sid would be shootin' the first shot at Lee Felts and that would be the signal for everybody else to shoot. And that, then, so what happened, according to Charlie, was all the detectives were at the train station waitin' to go. That Sid Hatfield had walked up to Lee Felts at a, supposedly in a friendly jovial mood, had his arm around his shoulder a talkin' to him in a friendly fashion and while he was doin' that he uh..pulled out his revolver, stuck up to Lee's head and shot him and that was supposedly the first shot that was the signal everybody else to start shootin' and then you know what happened from there.

B: Okay. Um...I assume, you father wasn't in town that day?

PL: that's true. He was in Charleston at uh...at Union Headquarters.

B: What...what was he doing up...up there? Do you...do you know?

PL: He was uh...doin' what an undercover man does. He went with the union to try to get information and uh...they was, and I'm not sure of the details but they was some meeting in Charleston, with the union officials, and he was goin' down there to attend that.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Was your mother in town that day?

PL: Yeah. But, I'm not sure, to be honest with you, I said yeah but I'm not sure.

B: uh...huh I was just wondering if she had ever said anything herself about, if she had seen anything?

PL: Well, what I...the story I just related to you. I've heard over and over and over in time, my mother and my father, you know, whether she was relating it from his standpoint or not, I don't know.

B: Okay. Um...have...have you heard that they had found the uh...court documents about your father's trial when he was put on trial?

PL: Yeah. I read that in the paper but uh...that's been about a month ago now.

B: Um...I...I would like to send you copies of those if I could. I have copies of them if you would like to see them.

PL: Honey, I'd love to. Because I wrote Paul Lambert, or whatever his name is, asking him to give me to quote me a charge on gettin' them and he didn't even give me a response.

B: Okay. Um...well, I was, I'd brought that up to ask you if he ever talked about that trial to you.

PL: Only from the standpoint that uh...only thing I can remember about that trial was number one, that of course was he was found not guilty. And that uh...two, that Jessie, as I understand, testified for him. And he'd been tried for shooting Sid and Jessie was married to Sid at the time. And I understand that she testified for him. And I know there was an interview in a newspaper where Jessie had said, I know for a fact that Charlie Lively did not shoot Sid. That was the one thing they to got talkin' bad about Jessie, she knew all the people with guns, you know, first the mayor, then Sid shoots the mayor and marries Sid, Charlies' he's accused of killing uh...Sid and then uh...she took charge of Charlie, she assigned a state trooper as a body guard escort, in that period of time and she ends up marrying him.

B: Oh, so the man that she married was her...had been assigned her protector, basically.

PL: My understanding is that...the state trooper, who was state trooper that she eventually married uh...to my understanding and he was assigned as her body guard during the period of time that Charlie and the other two gentleman [sic] were on trial for shooting Sid.

B: Um. Okay. (tape cuts off)

(Side B: Taping difficulty.)

B: Where did the family go?

(Mr. Lively's response is) They stayed in West Virginia. He lists siblings. Two siblings born in the early 1920's.

PL: And another one in October of '27. (unintelligible), I'm not quite sure where Vivian is,all three of those were born in Vivian, except it's over in the coal area there somewhere. And then of course, I was born in Mount Hope. So, from the standpoint where everybody was born, uh...I know they was still in the...in the area.

B: Un-hun. So, did um...when your father worked as a miner, when you were born, the unions were about to become legal, did he ever talk about what he felt had happened when...when the miners' union did become legal?

PL: Well, now, let me back up a minute, one thing when he, I know when he was in Mount Hope, that he was not a union, workin' in a union position, he was uh...what they call straw boss so you didn't have to be a union member to be it but, no, he was convinced that the unions were gonna lead to the...to the destruction of the company, or the country. And he still felt that way up 'til the day he died.

B: Okay. So he was, basically, when he worked in the mines, he was a...a foreman or a boss and so he didn't, he wouldn't have had to have joined the union anyway.

PL: Well, I can tell you when I was born he was, worked in...in a nonunion role. Like in a supervisory capacity. And I would suspect, and I, do you remember that uh...like when he left Matewan and went over to McDowell County, in McDowell was still nonunionized. The mines over in that area were...were still working at non unionized mines. So uh...you now, the whole state of West Virginia was not unionized at the same time. Now, I feel certain, and this just speculation on my part so get that in there, that he would not been able to get a union card to uh...after uh...the Matewan incident and...and his and the space after his uh...trial for shootin' Sid. But they was many places in West Virginia where he could have worked without having to belong to the union.

B: Right. Okay. Um...in, Lon Savage had sent us some copies of the notes that he took when he had talked to you, and uh...he said that your family lost contact with your father for a number of years um...would you care to comment on that?

PL: Well, I'll can just tell you what I know uh...they were,(coughing) excuse me, I'm sorry,

B: uh...huh

PL: there were some family problems. And let's see, I guess, I think I must have been, I guess about thirty, somewhere in the neighborhood of '36 or so, he left and, so he left home when I was about three years old and uh...we didn't have contact with him again until he resurfaced in '61.

B: Un-hun. And what....what was he doing at that time? I mean, was he retired or?

PL: Well, at my understanding there's been a lot of things in that period of time that he had when he first left, it was my under-standing he was workin' for awhile as a railroad detective for one of the railroads, I think it was Norfolk & Western. And I can't give you any time periods or lengths of time but, at various times after that he'd uh...operated restaurants, service stations, and he immediately, immediate several years before he resurfaced, he had been he had owned and ran a small hotel in Roanoke.

B: Un-hun. Did you...did you all ever hear what the name of that would have been?

PL: Um...the name of the hotel?

B: Yes, sir.

PL: I've probably got it on some papers around here somewhere Becky, I but I don't recall of hand.

B: Okay.

PL: It may have been something real unique like the Roanoke Hotel or...(laughing) I don't...I don't want to go on record saying that because I just don't remember off hand. I tell you what, if I run across some papers, I'll uh...drop you a line there, in care of Yvonne, and let you know. I'm not...I'm not sure off hand what the name of it was. It's runnin' in my head that it was just called the Roanoke Hotel but uh...I'm not positive right now.

B: Okay. Um...Did he send you all any support or were you totally cut off from him?

PL: No, we never heard from him during that period of time.

B: Un-hun. Did your mother remarry or?

PL: No.

B: Okay. Was she...was she living when he resurfaced?

PL: I beg your pardon?

B: Was she still living when he...when he resurfaced when you all knew of his whereabouts?

PL: Yeah.

B: I don't suppose they reunited?

PL: Yes, they did.

B: They did?

PL: Strange, isn't it?

B: Pardon?

PL: I said strange, isn't it?

B: Well, love works in mysterious ways, I suppose.

PL; Yeah. No. She still loved him and she...even while he was gone. I guess she understood why he left.

B: Did she ever talk about perhaps , it relating to the pressure of his job or...

PL: Well, I guess possibly indirectly it could have. It was out in the I mean the unstated reason he was having trouble with the older boys and that's what caused him to...to bug out. And I guess, indirectly that could have been brought on by the pressure of what had occurred, of course, that's just speculation.

B: Right. How were your...

PL: Now all these psychiatrists and social workers decided that was why you did things back in those days because uh...you hated your mother when you was a kid. (laughing)

B: Okay. Um... Did your um...how did your mother support um...the younger children including your...yourself?

PL: Well, uh...fortunately, there were older brothers who, remember I'm from a family of nine and essentially it was, almost like two families. Cause they were brothers and sisters who had already grown up and married before I came along. So uh...for period of time we lived with uh...other married members of the family and uh...then uh...one of my, shortly after he (Charlie Lively) left, one of my sisters became widowed and uh..her insurance money, then, she used to buy a small house over there in Raleigh County. And uh...she uh...my mother, I, another brother, another sister moved in there and that's where we lived and stayed for many, many years. And frankly uh...you know, periods of time, we lived on welfare and uh...whatever help we could get from older brothers. We always uh...gardened we uh...I can remember we had a big garden. We lived on that. Course they was canning, putting up of fruits and vegetables to carry you through the winter. And basically, what you needed then was a, money to pay your utility bills 'cause your house was there and it was paid for and our food came in the garden and the cash that we needed was what was required to pay utilities and what few clothes that we had.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Well, what, how did you feel when you met your father? Because you were a young man at that point. How did you feel when he returned?

PL: Oh, I really had no feelings for him cause I didn't know him. He was like I said, when he left, I was only about three so, he was to me, he was uh...just somebody that the rest of the family talked about.

B: Un-hun.

PL: So uh...and of course, uh...I respected my mother's feelings about him and that was it, you know.

B: What did you think of him as a person? It's hard to get a description of what his personality was like. Did they ever um...I mean, was he a quiet, serious man, was he an active talkative man? What kind of person was he described as being by your mother or your older siblings?

PL: Oh, well, my mother, I'm not sure how to answer that be honest with you. Because I'm not sure I've ever heard them say those contrasts, Now, my mother talked about him being a, always self- educated, a very intelligent individual but uh...and that uh...one of the things I remember her talkin' about him was he wasn't uh...working in the mines, that uh...he would not think of going out of the house without a suit and tie on. He just wouldn't. If he was going down to the drug store to get a newspaper, he'd put on a suit and tie. (laughing) I think uh...probably, yeah, serious, that side and uh...I think he was, that's what extraordinary and uh...but uh...and that may be why he and my older brothers didn't get along. Because I think he did believe that daddy is the boss and the figure of authority and everybody else did as they was told, and some of them was hell on that. Um...I guess you know, a serious minded individual. Probably that is the best way of describin' him, in those, in the early days.

B: Okay. How long did he live after your parents reunited? Do you know? Do you remember when he died?

PL: Uh...yeah, he died in May of '62. They had been back together about a year.

B: Un-hun. And uh...has, when did your mother pass away?

PL: December uh...November of the same year.

B: I see, Okay. You wouldn't know, off hand, their birthdates, would you?

PL: Yeah. I don't know off hand, I got. She was born, that's not right. The date. She was born December 19, 1889, and he was born March 6, 1887.

B: Okay. Alright. Did um...I guess the, the last few questions I have was to see if um...he was um...did he ever express any political opinions? Was he a Democrat or a Republican or did you ever know anything about that?

PL: Yeah, uh...my recollection of their discussions, he was a Republican. Because I remember my mother joshing him about how they always went to the polls and canceled each others votes out.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...so your mother voted then, once it became legal for women to vote?

PL: Oh, yeah.

B: Okay. Um...did your father ever express any opinions about the more nationally known union figures, say people like Mother Jones?

PL: Well, only from the standpoint that, that he expressed about the union people in general. That they were, dupes of the communists and that they were promoting the, what they called the Communists. Either knowingly or unknowingly.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Had your father um...did he serve any time in the military during World War I?

PL: No.

B: Okay. Do you know what he did during that time period other than, well, I guess he...he worked for the Baldwin Felts?

PL: Well, he went into the Baldwin Felts at a very young age, you know, he was born in , what I'd say, 1887, and he was workin'. I'm not exactly sure when he went to work with the Baldwin Felts but I know as early as uh...1911 or 1912. That he was workin' for em', you know, so he was a young man when he worked with them.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Well, my last few questions are opinion oriented questions. What, how do you feel about the way your father has been depicted in movies, like the movie Matewan?

PL: Oh, you...I can answer that question either, very briefly or I can give you a three hour dissertation. But I have, I really consider, now I'm gonna just make, I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I had really considered the possibility of suing John Sayles. That movie was about as accurate as, well, it wasn't accurate. Let's just put it that way. That guy, if that was supposed to be a, true account of what happened in Matewan, it missed the target by ten thousand miles. That guy's fabricated and lied and made up things. Uh...in the first place, Oh, you can get on something as touchy as, that movie. That movie, for example depicted uh...instances where Charlie was supposedly involved...directly involved in things uh...they was one incident in the movie where they went into the woods, you know, chasin' uh...union folks and slaughtered a whole bunch of them. And if you remember, that was supposed to been when, according to John Sayles' movie, when Charlie's cover was first blown that he was spotted there, in that incident. He wasn't there. I mean, that wasn't his role, his role was strictly to gather information. And, you know, that, that movie depicted then, this guy that supposedly had seen Charlie before he got wounded and was taken in by some of the hill folks until he recovered and he came back to Matewan and told everybody that Charlie was a, was a Baldwin Felts man and...and to show you how inaccurate it was, they even showed them burnin' down the restaurant.

B: Right.

PL: And we all know the restaurant, really, is still there. It didn't happen. And, then John Sayles had a portrayal of this young boy, toward the end of the movie, you know a young boy being tortured to give some names and being killed and that Charlie was there. That didn't happen. Charlie was and, if it did happen, Charlie was not involved. The only thing, shooting that Charlie was involved in was the damn shooting in Welch. As a matter of fact, Charlie didn't even run a restaurant at the time that that uh...thing occurred, you know. John Sayles made up a, a whole bunch of stuff. As a historical document, that movie sucks, to be honest with you. I enjoyed it as a movie, don't get me wrong, you know, it was an entertaining movie, I enjoyed it. But as a historical document, it...it just plain old sucks. And excuse my language, but that's...

B: Well, from your...from your opinion, um...and I'm just trying to say this as blandly as possible, so that...so that...

PL: Oh, don't worry. Say it any way you want to.

B: So that your um...how...how would you like your father to, if you were to control how your father would be viewed by history, how would you have him written up or how...how would you have his involvement in the problems that were down here? How would you have that written up?

PL: Oh, I don't know Becky, my main thing, I'll repeat to you what I've said to so many people I've talked to. The thing there in Matewan and the coal fields, what have you, and I need to look at it inperspective. I don't think you could say everything was black and white, if you step back and view what happened, from a historical perspective, you know, there were right and wrong on both sides of the coin. The, I'm sure that there were times that things that, the coal operators, the Baldwin Felts people did that were not in the best of taste and of course, you know, the union was not uh...blameless either. But what I've seen, (coughing) excuse me, so far in the historical books has been the uh...Baldwin Felts people portrayed as, I think the favorite term was thugs, and well, you know, John Sayles movie portrayed...where they portrayed the Baldwin uh...uh...Sayles movie, Matewan, had the Baldwin Felts people, you know, comin' in, into and stayed at hotels. Did you see the movie?

B: Yes, sir.

PL: Okay, Okay, they stayed at the hotel, you now, how they beat everybody, you know, the typical thugs, I don't really think this is typical. I...I think uh...these people had a job to do and they they did it. They believed in what they were doing. I think, on the other side, the...the union people believed in their cause, and I think, you know, there was right and wrong on both sides of the scale and what I would prefer to see, is a balanced portrayal of what actually happened. The good and the bad of both sides. There seems to be a tendency. Yeah, well, my wife is sitting prompting me say romanticize the company (unintelligible) Sid. And I guess that is a good description. But my biggest objection is what I've seen in the history has been. Well, I think Lon Savage, for example, has done an excellent job, as far as he could, in being factual and if I had one complaint about what Lon Savage has done, is characterization. Every time you refers to a Baldwin Felts man, it's the Baldwin Felts thugs. I burn a little bit when at that characterization is...and uh...and not because that my dad was one of them. Because, as I've already indicated to you my dad was...was really a stranger to me, and so it's not from that standpoint, It's just I prefer to see a balanced picture. I don't claim that the Baldwin Felts were totally clean and totally lily-white in everything that they did, but by the same token, neither were the union folks. And, you know, the, so that I'm not misunderstood, let me repeat to you, for whatever paper your're writing, what I told other folks. I think, my personal opinion is, so that I don't get misunderstood by the union folks, is I think the union was a necessity in those days. It was something that had to come and now my Dad's uh...thinking to the contrary...uh...I..I know enough of history, what was goin' on in labor, the forces in those days, you know, if the union did not come along, that we would still have the sweat-shops. We had to have something to come along to protect the union folks. The workers uh...We may still have been back in the days when Ernie Ford used to sing about sixteen tons and one day older and deeper in debt. You sold your soul to the company store.

B: Um...Mr. Lively was discussing his opinion on...would you like to continue?

PL: Yeah. Having said that, you know defending the fact that we needed the unions, you know, you have to look at the other side too, I think. Alright now, the union folks were working for the company. The company was supplying them housing. The housing, and I'm just referring specifically to what happened in Matewan, the housing was owned by the company it was part of their compensation for working. And at that, when they went on strike and no longer was working for the...for the coal operating company, then the company had no obligation to leave them in those housing. I think you can, do the same thing. Well, let's put it on a grand scale, you know, part of the office uh...the governorship of the state. He has a mansion to live in. When he leaves the job of the Governor, he no longer is entitled to live in that mansion. He needs to get out. And, you know, same thing applied to those coal miners. When they no longer was workin' for the coal company, they had no right to live in the housing that was owned by the coal company, not to mention the fact, you know, that the coal company needed the housing then, to house the new people they were gonna bring in. So, this is just a round about way of, I guess...again, I expect, to impress upon you my idea that they was right and wrong with both sides of the picture. I just picked up.

B: Okay. Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you some questions about yourself to kind of fill out the story. Um...how long did you go to school when you were growing up?

PL: Well, I went to high school there in Raleigh County. I went into the service in the Korean War. I came back and I finished college. Went to college at West Virginia in Morgantown. Got a B.S. from there...

B: What did you study at...at W.V.U?

PL: Uh...Business Administration. And, see, I graduated from West Virginia in '58. And by the way, I'll just throw in for historical purposes, if that's what you're doing? Um...I went, I was, I married while I was in college. I went partly on GI bill which did not pay everything and partly uh.. supported myself during that period of time. I'd go a semester, two semesters. Uh...run up bills, drop out. Work a semester or so, pay off bills, get a couple dollars ahead, go back again. But anyway, I graduated in '58 and I went to work then, for the government uh...I started out with the Corps of Engineers in Huntington. And I worked in the personnel field. And I continued with the government. I worked awhile, well I worked from '58 to '64 in Huntington. And then I transferred to Baltimore district. And was in Baltimore for six years and, after the first year in Baltimore, I worked for the Corps to the Headquarter level, for them, and worked for them still in the personnel area. And then in 1970, I flew to Atlanta and transferred. Went with the U.S. Service District. And was during oh, the latter years of my career that uh...I went, entered law school down here at night and got a law degree. That was something to play with after I retired. And then I got, I retired from the Federal government. Oh, gosh it's been eight years now. In '80, '82 I would say.

B: Okay. And have you gone to work using your law degree?

PL: Oh, yes. I've worked. It's just a part time practice.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...have you, do you have any children?

PL: Yes. I, we had three boys, one of them's dead, I still have two.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Okay. Um...let's see. Are any of your siblings still living?

PL: Uh...yeah. There's, I got two sisters and two brothers still alive.

B: Okay. were...were any of these siblings alive when your parents were living in Matewan?

PL: No. All of them that was...well, all of them that were alive in those days have died.

B: Okay. Alright. Well, um...as long as we've talked today, I think perhaps um...I...we need to stop this interview, now, so that I can look it over and perhaps call you back with follow-up questions because I think I've reached my maximum point on thinking of intelligent questions to ask you today. But what I'll do when I get off the phone, is get copies of those documents made and get them in the mail for you this afternoon.

PL: Well, I'd appreciate that.

B: Okay. Okay. Um...I'm sorry, the air conditioner kicked on right as...as the last thing you said. Could you repeat what you said.

PL: I said only talk one more minute's not gonna break Yvonne and the Development Center.

B: Okay.

PL; Let me, if I may, add something here.

B: Okay.

PL: There's a lot of books, and I just, it's just, you know, it's a matter of gettin' a kick out of it, have uh...mention uh...Charlie in passing, I get a kick out of some of those descriptions because completely they're wrong. I remember one in particular, John Sayles book called " A Man In His Time" or something of that nature. He describes, the, I think, one page was where he supposedly had an interview Charlie out in Colorado. He talks about a man with these beady black eyes with 45 automatic, a pearl-handled, automatic stuck in his belt. You know, in the first place, Charlie's eyes were not beady nor black. They were blue, they weren't black. He had blue eyes. (laughing) And I...I know this, was for dramatization purposes, you know, it's, I get a kick out of it. He never did carry anything pearl handled. He never did carry and automatic. He always carried a Smith & Wesson : 38. I have it. It's the one he always carried. That's all he ever carried. That one Smith & Wesson '38 revolver. But the same one he carried in Matewan and Welch. Everywhere else he went. And I, you know what I'm saying is. Many of these people take, I guess, dramatic license when they write their books. But uh...I just get a charge out of that, how wrong they are. They don't make me mad the way John Sayles' movie did but uh...but, they don't get the actual, accurate portrayal. So don't ever write anything about a pearl handle '45, he didn't.

B: Okay. He carried a Smith & Wesson '38.

PL: I beg your pardon?

B: He carried a Smith & Wesson '38.

PL; Yep.

B: THat's interesting. That's what my mother carries. Um...I have, I just thought of one more question, when you said that. Um...do you know, did your father belong to any uh...fraternal organizations? I know men at that time would belong to say the Masons or the Knights of Pythias or anything like that.

PL: I'm not aware of any that he did.

B: Okay. I just...I...I thought I would check on that because some of the research we've been doing on some of the union men here in town that they belonged to those local fraternal organizations and I was just uh...wondering if you knew if your father had joined any of them.

PL: WEll, I can't say that he did or didn't, I'm just not aware of any.

B: Okay. Alright. Well thank you for talking to me today and I will get those documents in the mail, hopefully this afternoon.

PL: Uh, Becky the transcript was not in that group, is that right?

B: No, sir because what happened was um...when I talked to Mr. Lambert, he said that because your father was found not guilty, um...what they did was, the court reporters' records were not transcribed whenever someone was found not guilty.

PL: Becky, do me a favor. Did you ever talk to Lambert again?

B: Uh...I haven't talked to him in about a month and a half, really.

PL: Well, I say, if you ever do, ask him why he didn't have the courtesy to respond to my letter.

B: Okay. I..I know, have...have you met him?

PL: No.

B: Okay. (tape cuts off)

Matewan Oral History Project Collection