Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Charlotte Sanders Interview

BECKY BAILEY: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development center. June...July 19, 1990. I'm in the offices of the Williamson Daily News and I'm interviewing Ms. Charlotte Sanders. Ms. Sanders uh...if you would for the record, state your full uh...name and when and where you were born.

CHARLOTTE SANDERS: Well my maiden name was Charlotte Hope Oliver. O, L, I, V, E, R. And I was married to James D. Sanders who died three years ago.

B: Okay. Are you a native of this area?

CS: Yes I am. I was born and reared in Williamson.

B: Okay. And...

CS: Do you want to know the date of my birth?

B: If you don't mind.

CS: February the first, nineteen and twenty-one. Approximately two weeks after the death of Devil Anse Hatfield, by the way.

B: Okay. What were your parents names?

CS: My father was uh...Walker Oliver. W, A, L, K, E, R and he was a native of the Pond Creek section of Pike County. And uh...during the course of his lifetime operated a grocery store in East Williamson for thirty-five years. My mother was Christene and that's E, N, E, at the last. Chris. C, H, R, I, S, T, E, N, E. Louise, she was a Mead. She came from the Big Sandy area of Lawrence County, Kentucky at a place called Patrick.

B: Would you happen to know their birth dates?

CS: My father was born um...August the fourteenth, eighteen and ninety-five. My mother was born May the eighth, eighteen and ninety-eight.

B: Were you their only child?

CS: I was an only child.

B: When did your parents marry? Do you know?

CS: They were married on the, March the twentieth, or twenty-first, I forget, and nineteen and twenty. I think it was March the twentieth, 1920.

B: Do you know why you were an only child? Did your mother have uh...medical problems?

CS: That's right um...she had uh...two pregnancies which didn't go to term.

B: Was this after you were born?

CS: Un-hun.

B: Okay. What was the name of the doctor that helped uh...your mother deliver you?

CS: Dr. R. A. Salton, Sr. He's the father of the present Dr. Salton and he was, by the way, he was co-founder of the Williamson Memorial Hospital with the late Dr. G. T. Conley. C, O, N, L, E, Y. If your interested in that.

B: Was the hospital in existence when you were born or were you born at home?

CS: No um...the hospital, the one that's still standing, the old hospital I think was built or occupied about 1928. My mother was one of the first patients there when she lost her first, I mean second child you know through a tubal pregnancy. I don't think you want all that but, anyway, she did lose it in it's early stages. From her tubal pregnancies and I was seven years old when she lost the first child through a tubal pregnancies and she almost lost her life at that time but she was rushed to the hospital and Dr. Salton took care of her and she survived and then when I was sixteen years of age she had another pregnancy which the, turned out to be a tubal pregnancy and uh...they couldn't save the child and so she lost it in the early stages. And it would have been a boy.

B: So the...the babies developed quite a way before she actually lost them?

CS: No, they was, they were tubal. They were in their tube and see, the first time he removed one tube and left her another one, and she was able to become pregnant nine years later.

B: Oh, okay.

CS: But the same thing happened, they tried to save it but you see, if it will pass out of the tube on into the womb, I think that it might have developed but a tubal pregnancy, the baby just stays there. Un-hun.

B: Okay. Do you remember much about how they treated her at that time, I mean, how long was her stay?

CS: Well, I remember being seven when uh...they took her to the hospital and she had surgery for the removal of the...of the bad tube and then um...when I was sixteen, they did the same thing again and removed the other one, I understand.

B: Okay.

CS: And I remember both times of being just heart broken you know for my mother and my father.

B: How did your father react to these, these problems?

CS: Well, it's been so long, I don't remember but he was, he was very sorry about it all because he wanted a son, you know. He was, my father was very athletic and...and uh...had a chance to be a professional baseball player, a left handed pitcher in the early years and he always wanted a son, I guess that's why when I came along, he made a tom boy out of me. And in subsequent years of my growin' up I hunted with him and fished with him and played ball and did a lot of things you know, that a son would have done.

B: How long did your mother, do you remember how long did she stay in the hospital when...when she had...?

CS: I'd say approximately ten days.

B: So, really it wasn't that much different from how they...they treat women like the same problems today?

CS: No, and uh...Dr. Salton was an excellent physician and surgeon, in that day and time, he and Dr. Conley both were, were exceptional and I think in their time they were just as great as the doctors you would find in this day and time. They were very progressive doctors and uh...built the hospital.

B: You wouldn't have come across through the years any information about their credentials, say where they were trained uh, would you?

CS: Well, I probably had all that in my files but they were destroyed in the '77 flood so I have nothing now um...there's a plaque that always was in the hallway of the hospital up there, you know, with their names on it and I, they probably have their certificates hanging up there, I don't know uh...his sons, Dr. Salton, Jr. probably could fill that in for you. He lives up on the airport road.

B: Okay.

CS: Here in Williamson, he's retired now. As a matter of fact, he's the chairman of the Mingo County airport authority and they'll be meeting at four o'clock. That's one of the meetings I have to go to today.

B: Okay. Would you tell me some more about your father's baseball um...experiences?

CS: Well, um...dad um...dad was a veteran of World War I. He didn't go over seas but he was uh...I remember dad was six one and usually weighed about one seventy-five, one eighty. He was very athletic and he was uh...one of uh...ten children, I think there were about five, five or six of the boys and all of them were athletic and uh...in earlier years he played baseball with some of the early leagues that they had throughout the valley. They went to Phelps and different places and of course, travel was very difficult in those days, you know, you had only dirt roads but he loved baseball and, and uh...in the earlier years, you can talk to some of the older generations, now, that, the men that played ball, they remember dad uh...formin' little informal leagues and taking these boys to play ball all the time and um...he was a very influential you know, with the young people in getting into sports and tried to teach them to be good men and all and uh...he uh...had the chance to go with the St. Louis Cardinals once as a left handed pitcher. Go to one of their farm teams, and he backed down and didn't go but uh...

B: Do you know why?

CS: Well, I think, probably because uh...I guess, it was about the time he and my mother got married and we had this uh...mine war on in nineteen and twenty. Do you remember?

B: Yes, mam.

CS: The mine war. Had to do with some of the uh...it was about the time of the Matewan massacre and all and uh...dad had worked on the railroad for a time and of course, he was laid off and dad, uh...seven years later, that's when he went into the grocery business. About 1924 or '25. So he married and I came along and that's when he went into business. But he never stopped playing ball. He was uh...way up in middle age and still played ball. Softball. Played in these city leagues and all.

B: Un-hun. You say your father was one of about ten children. How big was your mother's family?

CS: Mother was one of um...six. One of her sisters, Alice, I think, died in, as a child then there was one boy and four sisters. The oldest one lived to be ninety years old. She died in 1985. She was the oldest and she lived the longest.

B: My goodness. Um...do you know how far back your...your father's family lived in this area. I know he was from Pond Creek. Do you know how long his family had been there?

CS: Well, my dad, my father's mother was a member of the Varney clan and you know how many Varneys there are on Pond Creek? My grandmother was Matilda Varney and uh...she married John Thomas Oliver who came up from Mountain City, Tennessee, and was a blacksmith by occupation. And I don't know whether they were married about in the eighteen and eighty or what, I might have some information at home but they're both buried at the cemetery. Varney Cemetery at Toler, Kentucky and uh...they lived on a farm. A large farm and at the head of what's called Pig's Branch. It's behind the present Belfry High School. THere's a hollow goes up behind there, well, my uh...grandparents farm was up there and uh...I think, they had ten children and then they divorced when my grandmother was still pregnant with my dad and my grandfather, subsequently, uh...I guess married another woman and had three daughters so my grandmother sold, later sold her farm but at the time, she uh...she had these strappin' boys and they farmed the land until about nine, let's see, about nineteen and six she came to Williamson. She had sold her farm up there and she divided the proceeds among her surviving children and uh...then, just lived among the children for the remainder of her life and she lived to be, maybe eighty or so. I don't, I'd have to look at the date to tell you her exact age and uh...her father, I believe was Andrew Varney and I'd have to look at my information at home to tell you who my great, great grandmother was and all but there's Runyon's and Davenports in...in that side of the family and. Do you know Claude Varney at Food City, well, he's my third cousin. His...his father was uh...let's see, his grandfather was a brother to my grandmother. We were all Varney. It was a big family of them. It would take me from now on to tell you about all them family members and trace it for you.

B: Okay. Well, um...I don't suppose anybody ever talked about why your grandparents divorced? Did they?

CS: Well, it's something best not discussed I guess.

B: Okay.

CS: It was just one of those things, I guess uh...they separated and later, she divorced him and I guess it was another woman, you know, but those things are best not mentioned, I think.

B: It's just interesting, I've noticed that they're, people like to say, well, people never divorced, years ago, people never divorced. But the more when you talk to people, the more there actually were divorces.

CS: That's right, I know, and she stayed and see, she was expecting my dad, who was the youngest of the ten and uh...she stayed and farmed the land and she was, she could, she was an excellent horsewoman and uh...I can remember my dad telling me that, that she was very good at treating sick people and uh..he said, sometimes during the night, he'd hear her get on her horse, Betsy, and he could tell when she got out of the hollow there at Belfry and was going down to somebody, to attend to someone that was sick and she was uh...she was just a true pioneer woman and she had those boys farm that land and everything you know until they finally came, I think my dad was about eleven when they came to Williamson. All of this is what he told me through he years.

B: Had it been uh...land from her family to begin with? Is that she and the children stayed or..?

CS: Yes, I think that the land was hers uh...I don't, whether she came by it through a relative or...or whether my grandfather purchased it, I just, I don't know. Some of this, some of my cousins might know all of that but I don't know. But I would say that's valuable land now. That's up in the coal country.

B: Un-hun. It would be. Okay. How...how far back um...in your family do you...do you know something about the education that your member, family members received?

CS: Well, I don't know about, about my grandfather, Oliver, but my grandmother Matilda um...never had but about six weeks of education and there was a reason for that. She was just several years old, I don't know. I'd have to look at her birth date. Whenever the civil war came along and I can remember, Maw, as we called her, telling me that she couldn't go to school because she had to stay home and help her mother with the other children so she could neither read nor write and I remember as a child, taking the old big family Bible and sittin' and readin' to her. They had stories in there for children, you know, in large print, and I remember just as a youngster reading to my grandmother. Who uh...she was more or less a baby sitter for me when I was young cause mother and dad run the grocery store and uh...she just was unable to get education then and the family lived in a log house there, I guess it would be Toler. Above Toler, Kentucky, there. And it was just in a time when travel was difficult. War goin' on. Civil War, and she just didn't have an opportunity but she was smart in other ways, she...she had much practical sense about things and healing and uh...cooking, house keeping and things of that sort. She had tremendous knowledge of things.

B: Did she ever talk about her memories of the civil war? Did troops ever come through this area? Did she say?

CS: I don't remember her ever saying the troops came through but uh...I can remember her telling me about the few times she went to school and uh...I know when I was a child and sometimes I'd want to be, I'd want to paste something and maybe I didn't have any paste at home, she would go into the kitchen and she'd make a flour paste and she'd take a match stick and uh...she would take some material left, of material, just maybe two inches wide and she would fray one side, on edge of that and then wrap it around the match stick and tie it with thread and those fringes was your brush for the paste and it worked real well. I can remember her doing that for me as a child. She had the skills to make do for things we take accept today, but we accept today as going into the store and buying but she could make things of her own knowledge, you know.

B: Do you remember things that she would do like that?

CS: Well, I don't know whether it was, whether it ever really worked but I can remember when I would be peeling onions sometimes in the kitchen and I'd get onion in my eyes and we had a, an aluminum dipper that hung by the sink and my gran, it was very shiny and my grandmother would take the dipper and put ice cold water in it and tell me to stand and stare to the bottom of that and I can remember my eyes would clear up. Whether it was just psychological or whether it actually worked, I don't know. She uh...she had superstitions in her mind about different things uh...I remember that they, you know, like if a bird enters your house, it's a sign of death. She believed in omens and things a whole lot. As did a lot with the earlier people, you know, but that could have been because of her lack of education but she was not, you know, dumb by any means, it was just that she didn't have book learning.

B: Do you know um...any of the uh...remedies that she used when she would go and help take care of sick people?

CS: No, I really don't know. I don't think that I ever heard them go into that. I can remember when I was just a, I was a preschooler and so many mothers in those days were afraid of smallpox and different disease and I don't know which particular one they were, got ? against and my mother was not superstitious but I think it was my grandmother that insisted that she take asafetida and roll it into a ball and you tie it with thread or something and you hand it around the child's neck which is supposed to ward off disease and a lot of the kids wore them, I can remember when I was a child.

B: Okay. Did your parents ever tell you about the flu epidemic that followed the war?

CS: I had heard uh...them mention about so many people dying and if you'll look at the, the death records, I'd say in Mingo County, uh...you'll find that many people did die of the flu.

B: Where did your father serve during the war if he didn't go over seas?

CS: He was stationed uh...with the transportation company. U. S. Army transportation company up what was called Fort Umphrey then, was near Washington D. C. It was called Fort Umphrey and I don't know whether it still exists or whether it operates by another name today. But he uh...he was not in it long, to long, before the war ended in 1918, but he had attained the rank of sergeant during the time that he was in.

B: Un-hun. Do you know anything about your parent's courtship? How long they dated or how they met?

CS: Well, my mother, as I told you was born on uh...the Big Sandy River, which was about eighteen miles above Louisa and you know the Leviza Fork goes into Pikeville, so it was half way, well, partway between Pikeville and Louisa where she was born and uh...her, her mother had reared a niece from the age of nine after the niece's mother had died, there were three children and I think my grandmother Mead and uh...her brother and sister had each taken a child and reared it and uh...this woman's name was Belle. She was uh... Belle Norman and she had come to Williamson, she had married and met a man, Fred Norman and they had married and moved to Williamson so, one by one, the girls out in the country would come to visit her in East Williamson and subsequently, got jobs. I know uh...mother's sister got a job at the old YMCA in East Williamson, and it seems to me that she, she was uh...worked in the post office there and my mother came over as a young woman and she got a job with a, a junior mercantile store that used to be located near the YMCA so they boarded with Mrs. Norman who was uh...like a foster sister to them and there was a grocery store at the mouth of Peter Street, I believe it was called Carlos Grocery. I had been established by a man that had come here from Scotland and my mother happened to be in the store one day and mother was a beautiful woman and she had on a large picture hat and my dad just happened to walk in the store and he told me in later years that he took one look at her and he said to himself," I'm gonna marry that woman" and uh...I don't know how long they dated but they had met, apparently before he went into service because I remember there used to be a pile of letters that he had written her from uh...near Washington while he was in service and so they were married about two years after the war ended. But they were married like fifty-three years. My mother died in 1973, in Lexington, the University of Kentucky Medical Center and my dad, at the age of seventy-eight, died six months later, probably of heart break as much as anything else. But they were married fifty-three years.

B: We've noticed when couples are married that long, they tend to die one will die shortly after the, the first one. Do you know anything about how they set up housekeeping? I mean, Williamson was more like a city than it was a village. Did they live in an apartment or did one of them have a house?

CS: They lived uh...in a little house on Peter Street and i was born in that house on Peter Street, in East Williamson and later they move to a house, a little house below the YMCA and then we moved to a stone house that was just recently torn down near the mouth of uh...Peter Street, in East Williamson, there along East Fourth Avenue, and I spent my early years of my childhood there and I remember them and then when I was about eight, I guess, we moved to another location uh...in East Williamson. 607 East Fourth Avenue and we lived there, well, I lived there until I was married and then uh...mother and dad moved to Sunset and bought a home there about 1961 and lived there until their deaths.

B: Un-hun. (tape cuts off) Your parents married about the time that uh...they hadn't been married long when the Matewan massacre occurred. Did they ever talk about how much news came over from Matewan?

CS: Oh, my dad knew all about it and that's the first uh..when I was a child, I can remember him telling me about the Matewan Massacre. He told me about the Glen Alum robbery which had occurred six years earlier than that. The Glen Alum payroll robbery and uh...dad was uh...sort of poetic in a way. Even though he was a macho man, you know, he was very poetic and he had written a book full of poems about the Matewan massacre and...and the Glen Alum robbery and I remember as a child readin' them and I just thought they were wonderful and some years later, when I was in my teens, I guess, I had them out one day reading and some how or other he was little, kind of ashamed that he had written the poems or something and he burned them and I hated it so much because it had a lot of information about, but he had told me about the massacre and all the shooting and what it was all over. That's the first that I remember hearing uh...also, about that time, for the Hatfields and McCoys and he had met Devil Anse some years, uh...Devil Anse had come to Williamson but my dad said that when he was a boy, after they had moved to Williamson, he was a member of the scout camp of some kind, a group of boys had been organized and they went over to Island Creek, near Sarah Ann, in Logan County, camping and he remembered this man wearing the boots or leggings coming to their camp one night with a big long beard and it turned out it was Devil Anse Hatfield, so he had seen the man different times and told me about him and it kind of stayed in my mind all those years, the things that he told me and, and then after I came to work here, from time to time, things would come up referring to those instances and I had done a story on the Glen Alum robbery and the massacre for special editions that were put out through the years.

B: Okay. (tape cuts off) (tape cuts off).

CS: Now, I haven't mentioned about my other grandparents but my other grandfather, my mother's parents were Milton Mead, M, I, L, T, O, N Mead. And Mary Preston Mead and those are old names in the history of Lawrence County, Kentucky and my grandfather was a timber man for many years and they moved to Williamson when I was a child and my grandfather went into the grocery business with my dad.

B: Un-hun. I guess, today because it's the time of the...of the giant supermarket and all that, it almost sounds so risky for a private individual to go into the grocery business. What kind of uh...costs and how much money did...did your father make from that kind of business? Were you all, say middle class...

CS: Middle class, un-hun. Middle class. We uh...we were never, my parents were never spendthrifts and they gave great deal of thought to anything that they purchased but I can recall growing up in the store and I had plenty of chances to stock up and you know, a child can stock up groceries and shelves and do a lot of things around a store and I learned a great deal. I even learned to cut meat, you know, I could have been a butcher because in those days, my dad would order meat my telegram from a firm in Cincinnati, Ohio and it would come in packed in a big wood barrel of ice and in...in those days, things were not prepackaged like meats. Prunes, dried prunes, apricots and fruits of that sort were all in uh...wooden boxes and you had to measure them out and weigh them. Everything was done like that individually and uh...and even chickens and turkeys were on foot in those days. You weighed them on the scales. You tied their feet, laid them on the scales and weighed them and sold them to people and the people, in those days, cleaned their own meat like that, there was nothing prepackaged. And we had plenty to eat and my mother sewed, in her spare time, and I...and she made a lot of my clothes and they were very beautiful I thought and I...I had a good life. I had a happy life.

B: Did um...did the Depression affect your father's business?

CS: Yes it did um...when it came along in 1929, he was doing well in the store, but, through the years, he credited people to keep families from starving and maybe they would be able to pay him just a little bit but there would be a big balance carried and he lost thousands of dollars in the Depression and I can remember hungry people coming to our door. Every time a train came through the east Williamson yard, we lived in East Williamson, there would be the hobo's that would come to our back door for something to eat so we figured our house was marked and uh...my mother never turned anyone away. If it was to just go a scramble an egg. Make an omelette or, or a sandwich, something like that, she would, to keep people from starving and it was terrible during the Depression and so many people were without, food and all, and I can remember my dad helpin' everybody and he just almost went broke as a result but, he came out of it later.

CS [sic: B]: You were a child at that time and it's really interesting, people talk and remember how bad it was but, was that a day to day atmosphere? I mean, were children aware that they, that their parents didn't have money, I mean was that in the atmosphere.

CS: Oh, I'm sure they were. I'm sure there were. Um...East Williamson, in those days was made up essentially of railroad people and railroad people were, for the most part, were very honest hardworking people and of course, those who had jobs uh...were able to pay my dad. I know some that dad credited and but, uh...in years later, whenever they got on there feet, some of them came and paid my dad in full every thing they owed. They were very honest. And of course, he lost thousands though, people that were unable to pay later, I...I know that the children probably had few clothes to wear. I just can't remember, it's been so long.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Would you tell me some about your school days? Where you went to school and...

CS: Well, I went to the East Williamson Grade School. Five years. I made two grades in one year and then I came to town. Junior high school and Williamson High School and graduated in 1938, at the age of seventeen and, because of the, we were still in the throws of the Depression, my parents were not able to send me to college and in those days, they felt like seventeen was a little bit young to turn a girl loose on her own in another city to go to college so I subsequently worked in the store some and at the age of eighteen, I went to work for the radio station here in Williamson. It was WBTH and worked as a secretary for them for over a year and also learned to write continuity, spot announcements, and things of that sort. You might say they were training me for a future career in the newspaper business and uh...I had a commercial course. I had shorthand, typing. Three years of each plus other things but I felt like I had an excellent education. Excellent teachers in those days. And the fact I've been able to hold my own all these years, those educated and far above me uh...speaks for the eduction [sic] I received at Williamson HIgh School.

B: How did you come to be involved in the newspaper business?

CS: That's a long story um...in January of 1943, I had contemplated joining some friends in Maryland to work in a war factory because you see, we was still in the midst of World War II. My dad happened to be in the lobby of the FIrst National Bank and over heard the editor of the paper at that time H. G. Clark, called Chank Clark, and he and my dad were friends. Dad overheard him trying to entice two of the bank clerks, women, to come work for him at the Daily News because most of the men folks had gone to the...to the, serve in the war and uh...dad said, to him, said," Chank, why don't you give my daughter a chance?" and Mr. Clark replied, "Well, Walker, I didn't know you had a daughter." And so forth and so on and it ended up with me calling and uh...Mr. Clark came up to my dad's store and wanted me to come to work for him and I told him I had never seen the inside of a newspaper. Had no idea of what it was to work for a newspaper and I was very frank with him and I told him my limited education but I said I do know shorthand and typing. I've had three years of it, so he wanted me to come to work, which I did on January the twenty sixth, 1943 and I had shaken hands with him with, on the promise that, if I do not work out in a week's time, that he would tell me and I wouldn't any longer, well, it just seemed to be something that I was made for. I loved it and then I got kind of sick of it and I'd get disgusted and I'd go home and I'd tell my mother," I'm not going back mother. I...I just don't believer I was made for this." And she'd say," Yes you are now go on back, go on back." Well, after a few months, the thoughts of working at anything else was just terrible, you know, I loved it and I stayed with it and I am now in my forty-eighth year although I'm retired.

B: What kind of work had, have you done at the newspaper through he years? Were you hired as a reporter and did you...?

CS: Yes, Uh...they had a woman editor at that time who was wanting to leave and she stayed a week to see if I'd work out, then she left and we had a male editor and through the years, we've had men editors and uh...they worked me as a reporter and uh...I learned to cover meetings and uh...things like that and uh...the late W. F. Dutch Talbert was one of the men who really inspired me and who taught me most of the basic things that I know today about newspaper work. He was a stern task master but he was wonderful and it was just like on the job training for me and as each year passed, of course, my knowledge of newspaper work increased and...and I just kept working at it and subsequently married and raised two sons and we built a home and that's about it.

B: How long had this woman editor, been...been editor when you came? Do you know?

CS: I don't know um...really how long she had been there but, see, this was during the war and I think she had probably taken over the desk after uh...Dutch Talbert went to service. I'm not sure about whether he was editor at that time or not but when the men went to war, that left vacancies so, I guess, if it hadn't been for the war, I might never seen the inside of a newspaper.

B: Okay. Through the years, have you ever, there..there are places and there are people in this area that are very traditional. Have you ever run across any discrimination as...as a woman reporter because you were a woman?

CS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Um...in earlier years uh...and salary was not the same, of course, as the men and uh...and I...I feel like I got a lot of opportunities to do things but I never advanced to any supervisory posts or anything like that. All through all the years, most of them said, all we want you to do is write and that's what I done is write. And of course I had the privilege of writing a column any time I want to for the editorial page and uh...

B: Um...would you tell me how...how you came to be involved in...in researching the Matewan area and the different things you've down through the years for that?

CS: Well, I had been a reporter, I guess about four years in 1947 when I was told by the editor that they wanted me to write stories for a section they were putting out with ads about the town of Matewan. That is was its fiftieth year of incorporation so I went up there and each day, for three days and I just started making myself acquainted with some, of course, I knew some people from having worked here previous years and uh...just started interviewing people and gathering pictures and the usual thing a reporter does. We put it together. I think it was about twenty, seems to me that it was twenty pages. You'd have to look at your copy.

B: What stands out in your memory about Matewan at that time?

CS: Well, of course, that's very obviously a small town but, I felt like it was a place of history cause I knew that it was in the center of the area where the Matewan Hatfield, Matewan Hatfield-McCoy Feud had occurred and I, I knew that across the river was where the three McCoy boys had been tied and killed. I was always conscious of it being a place of history and the big Matewan massacre, of course. I remember looking down the tracks because I had seen pictures where it had occurred but I liked the people and they were very cooperative. Interesting to talk with and it was just, it was more play than work. And for years, one of the teachers there, Marion Montgomery, I don't know whether you have heard of her or not, Mrs. Carl F. Montgomery, was a correspondent for us and uh...sent in stories of the happenings of Matewan and it just happened that I was the one who typed up her columns and her information when she sent it in and I talked with her frequently on the phones for years. She was our correspondent.

B: When she would write, would her name be published with these little articles in the paper?

CS: Un-hun. Mary Montgomery.

B: Okay.

CS: And then of course, I knew uh...one of the senators in those earlier years. Glen Taylor and uh...other people up there uh...Thurman Chambers. I think he was the sheriff at one time. I was acquainted with a lot of people up there. Very nice people. And then you see in the, through my family history, some of my grandmother's sisters married into the Hatfield families and then some of the family married into the McCoy family and, so really, I'm related to people on both...both sides. Hatfields and McCoys through marriage.

B: Speaking of the Hatfields and McCoys, I think it's time I ask you how you came to be involved in the uh...commemorative edition of that the Williamson Daily News puts out on the feud.

CS: You mean the first one in nineteen and eighty-two?

B: Yes, ma'am.

CS: I don't know who conceived the idea of putting out an edition but I remember that uh...I was told by my editor that they were going to put out a Hatfield McCoy edition and they wanted me to plan to spend the entire month of July of that year uh...working on stories and things for them but they had no idea of what type stories, just get pictures and...and do what you can. Well, we could run some stories, more or less advertised in the Daily News that we were looking for pictures and we did start gettin' mail and telephone calls and even before I started working steadily on it day by day and it just seems as though uh...things just started coming to me and as I traveled out, I'd pick up more and more things. More pictures and uh...there were people who were very helpful, you know, they had very valuable pictures and just started doing interviews at Phelps, Matewan, over on Blackberry, over in Logan County, here and uh...when we put it out, they printed, I forget how many extra copies but it was in the thousands and they sold out and we had no way of reprinting it without doing all that, without typing it all over again so we never really had any way of uh...selling it again so in nineteen and eighty-seven, I mean nineteen and eighty-nine rather, they decided to put this out in the hundredth year edition commemorating this thing so they ask me to do it again. Said use what you had in the first edition, add to it, change, or whatever, so once again, I took to the roads and talked on the phone. I had a lot of people comin' in though that I was able to get them to come in and bring pictures and of course, I updated all that I had in '82. Some of the people that I had inter...interviewed that were in their nineties and even a hundred years old had since died so I had, of course, to rewrite some of those and uh...picture like this now, I had not used in the first one. I had quite a bit left over from the first edition that we didn't have room for and one thing led to another and it just, finally on...on a Friday they told me that I'd have to have everything in on Tuesday and that there would be eighty pages and had I not been writing in my spare time and everything that I had already updated everything from the previous edition and had written new copy, well, I got busy and every lead that I could find, I followed it up and we got it out on time, eighty pages. And this had not been used previously so I just dragged out everything that could possibly be used to fill eighty pages.

B: And that was a map, of...of the area. Just so that I will have it on tape..?

CS: Yes, I have acquired that map when I was working on the one in '82 but didn't have room for it and it shows the Hatfield- McCoy Feud historic district.

B: Okay.

CS: You're aware that we do have such a district that was acclaimed. I don't know at Pikeville or where but I, the original is smaller than this. We enlarged this. For the cover. And I believe that's the one, maybe, that you did. And we still sell these here at the office. We still have them available.

B: What, what does your uh...biggest impression from working on this project? Do you think that people treat you now as if your an expert on the feud?

CS: That's right, I have become a so called expert, a name which I have not earned thought truly deserve but I must confessed that I have learned a great deal about both families and I can recall many things when it comes up in the conversation but I, that I didn't know about before. And we have letters, telephone calls, every week, from people in distant states who want assistance in locating some long lost relative. A Hatfield or McCoy or wanting more copies of the paper or, some of them didn't get their information in on time and they thought, well, but we might follow up with something else and write more stories which we're not doing so, anything I get, I just file away. Wally says he'll have me do the hundred and fiftieth edition fifty years from now and I said don't count on it.

B: I noticed in an article that you wrote as a...as a follow up to your experience, you said you were amazed at the longevity at some of the people that you talked to in 1982.

CS: That's right. I interviewed a woman of, that was a hundred years old in Thacker Hollow, another woman at Matewan who's up in her nineties and many people that I interviewed were eighty years old or beyond that or, it was just amazing how they had lived all those years.

[B:] Well, do you have any idea on why, why you think they lived that long because people talked about how life at that time was harsh in areas like this?

CS: Well, I don't recall that Mrs. Hatfield at Thacker Hollow. She...she lived a quite life and...and they just didn't have the excesses we have today. I don't think they had soda pop, she didn't smoke I don't think. Nor drink and, I...I think it's just the way we live these days that's shortened our life span. In the old days, people ate more wholesome foods. There were no fast food places to go to and they ate food that they had raised themselves and probably ate more wholesome foods than we do now. I don't know.

B: Well, um...

CS: They lived quieter lives, they didn't live at such an accelerated pace that we do today.

B: How did they treat you? Were you treated with suspicion because you were doing these interviews?

CS: No, everybody that I went to was, were...were just great and um...I know I went to Logan County, back up in the mountains to see Devil Anse Hatfield's grandson, Henry D. and his wife Jean and uh...they provided me with or loaned me many of their pictures and they were probably one of a kind. I know we had to make a list and number them so that whenever I got through with them, we could check them off to be sure that there were none missing so, it was a great deal of responsibility in handling these pictures. Seeing that nothing came to harm. None of them came to harm and Estil Hatfield at Beech Creek, he and his wife Elizabeth were very helpful and some of the greatest pictures that I have in there were pictures he loaned me and it's people like that that made it a success. Not me. It was people that came forward with their information and their photos. And what is so amazing is that some of the photos from 1800's late 1800's were of excellent quality. After all these years, they were very clear, some of them. And I think there was a good bit of pride among people in their family history and the fact that these families feuded, it seemed to me it was just something that happened and, and they felt like that the issues were great enough to fight for.

B: I noticed that in your, your follow up evaluation oriented uh...article that you said, you felt that some of the family thought the events were shameful but they, the people were at the same time proud of their heritage. What do you feel about projects like what is going on in Matewan that is attempting to capitalize on this area's history since the history tends, tends to be rather violent the more well known incidents are centered on acts of violence. How do you feel about that?

CS: You're saying the old, the violence of the old days, how I feel about it?

B: Well, how do you feel about the idea that people are trying to attract tourism um...based on the history of the area of when the people that come in want to hear about the Matewan massacre or the Hatfield and McCoy feud?

CS: Well, I'm against commercialism, such as at Christmas and holidays and things and tourism may fall into that category, but at the same time, this area has been hit economic stress and if tourism will help our area, and help bring employment to people, I'd say uh...that it's great and to tell the story of things that happened in the old...old days, I, I think it's of interest of everybody. I've always found these stories fascinating and in writing all of this for both families, I made no judgments on any of them or their acts they did. It was something that happened a century ago and who knows, living today, that they might not have acted the same way given the same set of circumstances.

B: Right.

CS: Of the late nineteenth century. And we hear of violence in this world today and our nation that's far greater than anything that happened in this.

B: That's true. What do you thing about um...the causes behind the feud? What is your...your belief about how the feud got started and...and why it lasted?

CS: Well, based on what I've read and what people have told me that knew, that had heard stories handed down by their forbearers uh...there was not just one single thing because it was just something that built up. I believe it had its origin in the Civil War, some of the books said and there were prejudices and maybe thoughts of revenge, acts done against them and through the years and I think it's more or less just built up and when Floyd Hatfield, I believe it was Floyd who allegedly stole hogs belonging to Randall McCoy, that just brought everything to a head, I believe. And then, on election day on Blackberry, when Ellison Hatfield was stabbed, I think that was just, just another event in a series of things that brought on the feud. I really think that it was a series of things that built up.(tape cuts off)

B: Side one of Charlotte Sanders interview uh...one of my last two questions, Ms. Sanders is, when uh...years ago, when people first started talking about getting together dramatic productions based on the stories of the Hatfield-McCoy feud, there was some talk about having the production down in this area. Is that correct?

CS: That's right. I don't recall the date but it's been quite a few years ago. When we had an opportunity, perhaps, to get an historical drama for our area based on the Hatfield-McCoy feud. We formed a group called Tug Valley Festival Association I believe. Now, that may not be the proper title but it was the Tug Valley Festival and we had a group of citizens, some of them professional people who were discussing the possibility of having this outdoor drama. We were fortunate in having a well known author, Dr. Kermit Hunter, attend one of our meetings. Dr. Hunter wrote "Honey and the Rock" which of course, is one of the great plays presented at Beckley now, every year and uh...Dr. Hunter was willing to write a Hatfield-McCoy drama for Williamson and I remember that I was thrilled that a man of his stature, literary ability would be willing to write one for us. But during the course of our meetings and discussions, we talked about having a drama at the old football stadium in Williamson, which was to us, an ideal spot since it was carved out of a hillside many years ago and used as a football stadium for Williamson High School and back during the mid 1930's, during the depression, some CCC crews had constructed seats out of stone so it was just a night of, just a logical setting for such a drama and we even discussed, providing shuttle service to take people back and forth to see this drama. Well, for some reason or other, we had some dissidents in the group that thought it wasn't feasible and some of us argued," let's try it but", apparently we didn't have enough support in our group or of the citizens in the city and the plans just fell to the wayside and the group eventually folded and I always felt that opportunity had knocked on Williamson's door and we didn't open the door so we lost the...the drama to Beckley.

B: What was the reaction here in Williamson when those, when those productions started over in Beckley?

CS: In Beckley, well, I might have heard a few comments about it. But, people'd just shrug and say well," I guess it's our fault", so many people just accepted it.

B: Okay. Alright um...

CS: But I think if you don't open your door when opportunity comes that you're left with nothing.

B: I was going to um...well, my last question was, just in looking through the information that you've graciously shared with us, that there have been things that...that you have been shown and...and people have talked to you um...that would not talk to me. Either last summer or this summer and I was wondering, what your opinion on that would...would have been? Why someone would say talk to someone who comes in and says I'm a newspaper reporter versus somebody who's broadcast as an historian?

CS: Are you speaking of anyone in particular?

B: No, ma'am.

CS: And you have had several people that's denied...?

B: Yes. Yes.

CS: Well, I can't account for it uh...as I say, a lot of the things that we got were voluntarily offered by people who read our articles in the paper that we, in nineteen and eighty-two, that we were doing an edition and then again in uh...the last year, we mentioned that we were gonna put out another Hatfield-McCoy edition and uh...and we had people calling and writing. You saw the, the letters and things from people. That was just a part of it and uh...I don't know why anyone wold [sic] be reluctant to talk about it now.

B: Un-hun. I just was uh...was wondering if it had something to do with perhaps uh...when someone has an article published about their family in the newspaper, it's kind of an immediate response to their participation and I was, I think my question ties into, do you think the people of this area really appreciate the history of this area? Do you think the average citizen...?

CS: Yes I do. I think, I think everybody's interested in history in the area. Or else, why would we sell thousands and thousands and thousands of copies...of this edition and through the years after the '82 supply was exhausted, we had nearly every week we had telephone calls or letters wanting extra copies and we kept all those through the years and amounted to quite a few and that's what really, it and the fact that it was the hundredth anniversary of the feud is what decided our present publisher, L. B. Harvit, and our editor to decide to do it again. The sucess [sic] of the first one dictated us putting out another one, and we've not been disappointed.

B: Speaking of research, I just remembered one last question I'd like to go back and ask you because it, it deals with research and that is the loss of materials that you had gathered through the years during the '77 flood. How devastating was the flood to the newspaper as far as the background material that had been gathered through the years?

CS: Well, we lost some very valuable files of the Daily News. Bound copies of the Daily News. They were usually down the, like three months, you seen the bound copies, large ones. We lost valuable editions, some of the early ones of the old Mingo Republican which uh...started around the turn of the century. We still had a lot of them and the '77 flood didn't take all of our old files. We lost some through other floods when we were at an old location for many years in the next block. We were, we had a basement area that was subject to flooding and for some reason or other, some of the files were stored there and we lost some of our most valuable ones through floods and a fire at the old plant. Daily News plant. We moved up here in March, 1973 uh...after converting this from an old freight depot, and in '77 I lost a lot of historical material including photos that I had gathered through the years. Some of those were of the Matewan massacre. I had negatives and pictures that the late Red Wilkin...Wilkerson of Williamson had for some reason or other, had sent them to me one year. He...he lived in the early years and was a member of the posse, I believe that went after the five Italians that had robbed the Glen Alum payroll and for some reason, he had pictures of all of that including the five Italians in their coffins which we ran in an earlier edition. I don't know whether you've ever seen that or not and um...he sent those photos to me, well, we lost a lot of things like that. They were just irreplaceable. Almost everybody in the low land being flooded, there's no one that has any pictures like that anymore except, unless they lived up on a hillside. There's pictures that we can never regain.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Alright. Well, thank you very much for talking to me today.

CS: Your welcome.

B: I can't think of anything else I would like to ask you. Is there anything you would like to add?

CS: No, I think I've said too much already.

B: Okay. Well, thank you.

CS: If you think of something that, that uh...you need, just give me a call and I'll be glad to tell you.

B: Okay. Thank you. (tape cuts off).

Matewan Oral History Project Collection